What kind of HP can the Talon be built to that's reliable?

[Hometeam]

@MDFMac is the one that burnt up 1,3,5 clutch with a turbo installed, but he stated it was not the turbo or the HP but the number of brake stand launches he did before he had launch control. The 3 peddle YXZ can put down crazy power and the motor and trans can handle the power the rear diff usually gives out first there. They now have a new clutch setup for the YXZ SS model that supposed to handle as much power as the 3 peddle. The Honda drive tran built right would handle power. A transmission holds power better than a belt. Even if you listen to Shock Therapies owner talk about the races hes in with his X3. He talks about the need to keep his speed down for long periods of time because the belt and clutch systems cannot handle the buildup of temp happening when you are holding power for long periods of time. I rode this weekend with a Polaris and we spent 20 minutes winding back-and-forth but going up Hill at 35 to 40 miles per hour and his belt and clutch set up ended up overheating and locking engaged because it was maintaining power for too long of a time.

 

[PaulF]

Unfortunately agreed from what I'm finding

I just notice on another thread that you already have another machine. If you are expecting to build a Talon that will move and handle anything near like your modded Canned Ham then you are sorely mistaken and will be VERY disappointed. Stick with the CA if you are primarily a duner.

Now, if you want to go rock crawling, my lowly 104 HP Talon will kick your 200+ HP CA's A$$. The poor, overpowered CA's in our group at Moab were having the worse time there. Those machines are simply not built for that at all. Hell, the 6 seat General was going places the CA's couldn't (or wouldn't), it was kind of comical.

And 3 Polaris (2 RZR's and 1 General) belt changes in 2 hours got old. I think I will stick with my slow Talon.

 

[HPnMORE4J]

I just notice on another thread that you already have another machine. If you are expecting to build a Talon that will move and handle anything near like your modded Canned Ham then you are sorely mistaken and will be VERY disappointed. Stick with the CA if you are primarily a duner.

Now, if you want to go rock crawling, my lowly 104 HP Talon will kick your 200+ HP CA's A$$. The poor, overpowered CA's in our group at Moab were having the worse time there. Those machines are simply not built for that at all. Hell, the 6 seat General was going places the CA's couldn't (or wouldn't), it was kind of comical.

And 3 Polaris (2 RZR's and 1 General) belt changes in 2 hours got old. I think I will stick with my slow Talon.

As mentioned,
I agree they are limited to a class. Just wondered what they could muster outside of that as I love Honda for many other type of machines/cars, hence why didn't want a Defender, Ranger etc.. for a UTV.

Was just wondering what Honda had in the werks... 🤠 🤓

The aka "Canned Hams" are winners for the 4th year Dakar, Baja etc. leaving competitors in the dust. Something a miss with those boys you are mentioning at MOAB for sure, however they did take King of the Hammers as well?

Most of my rec use is on sand as well on open dirt trails where I use all of that 200+hp and low center of gravity.

 

[Plumber32]

To make big hp reliable you really need a standalone ecu. The hondas transmission controller is integrated in the ecu so that kills big hp setup. Not sure how the clutch would hold up. Here's a stock yxz clutch compared to the honda.

View attachment 266287 View attachment 266288

I'm really surprised they have a launch mode. Id be scared to ever use it in fear of my drive train being left on the trail! Is some of the plate differences due to the dual clutch instead of a single clutch? Perhaps honda setup is just as good or better at getting rid of heat? Tons of yxzs on video smoking the clutch very quickly. So Perhaps bigger isn't better all the time? Whats your idea on that?

 

[Adam490]

I'm really surprised they have a launch mode. Id be scared to ever use it in fear of my drive train being left on the trail! Is some of the plate differences due to the dual clutch instead of a single clutch? Perhaps honda setup is just as good or better at getting rid of heat? Tons of yxzs on video smoking the clutch very quickly. So Perhaps bigger isn't better all the time? Whats your idea on that?

Think a lot of that could be contributed to actually being able to slip the clutch? I've seen a bunch of really stupid people burn up clutches in cars because they have no idea how to drive a manual transmission.

 

[toddvdh]

I believe launch mode only comes on the sport shift yxz's. So the computer controls it. It doesn't come on the 3 pedal version.

 

[PaulF]

Is some of the plate differences due to the dual clutch instead of a single clutch? Perhaps honda setup is just as good or better at getting rid of heat? Tons of yxzs on video smoking the clutch very quickly. So Perhaps bigger isn't better all the time? Whats your idea on that?

Although the DCT has 2 clutches, they are never engaged at the same time (or it would lock up the trans). The main differences that might allow for such a small clutch are...

• Talon clutches are free wheeling and are hydraulically engaged, the YXZ clutch appears to be spring engaged and lever released (I may be wrong). Hydraulic pressure can be much greater than springs. Think about an auto trans in a car, the clutches inside it are much smaller than what a manual trans uses. My 400 HP car's internal automatic clutches are barely bigger than the Talons clutches.
• The Talon holds twice as much oil as the YXZ and has an oil cooler for the DCT so it will cool the clutches better.
• Where in the gearing system the clutch is placed may also play a part. I do not know where the YXZ's clutch is but the Talon's is not attached to the crank like most cars and bikes. It is geared down and turns slower than the crank so that may also affect how big it needs to be.
• The only time the clutch slips is in 1st or reverse when starting to move. When shifting, the clutches are disengaged/engaged so fast, there is virtually no slippage.
• Computer vs. human engagement. The Talon clutch is basically either on or off with very little slip. You can feather the gas and make it slip (like to hold yourself on a hill) and burn it up if you try but during normal driving, it is difficult to screw it up.

I have had my R at the dunes going from bowl to bowl for 30 to 45 minutes straight. Basically either "pedal to the metal" or deceleration and nothing in between. The trans shifts constantly and seamlessly the entire time. Never had any issues and the temp stays at 2 bars even in 90 degree weather. IMO, the DCT in the Talon is almost bulletproof unless you abuse it like @MDFMac did.

DynoJet has added some logging items, including DCT Clutch Pressures and Oil Temp. I think I will go log some hard runs and see what there is to see.

DynoJet also just recently added this tidbit to make it easier to Dyno the Talon (no longer have to use a 4WD dyno or pull the front tires). Hopefully it allows for some better and more consistent dyno readings...

Now if they can crack the DCT to make it stay in the same mode as when the key was shut off. Drives me nuts to stop for a break and have to put the trans back to the mode I had it before I stopped, what is up with that???

 

[red1329]

its a shame there isn't a 3 pedal talon..

 

[Killer223]

My talon fallows X3 all over the dunes with zero issues. Just not drag racing up the big ones.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

I'm really surprised they have a launch mode. Id be scared to ever use it in fear of my drive train being left on the trail! Is some of the plate differences due to the dual clutch instead of a single clutch? Perhaps honda setup is just as good or better at getting rid of heat? Tons of yxzs on video smoking the clutch very quickly. So Perhaps bigger isn't better all the time? Whats your idea on that?

The Honda has a high pressure oil spray in the #1 clutch to help with cooling. Thats what they added with the Pioneer Clutch Update. The YXZ does not have any pressure cooling. There are aftermarket parts for the YXZ to help with cooling, basically drilling holes in the clutch basket to get oil to the clutches. With the Honda using oil pressure to engage the clutch, they can get over 1,000 psi on the clutches where the YXZ uses a spring and is probably around the 200 psi range with a stock spring. Quite a few real big hp clutch upgrades are available for the YXZ, 500+hp. Only upgrade for the Honda is the PV3 programming and they did add a lot of settings in the last update. No aftermarket hard parts are available though.

 

[HPnMORE4J]

The CVT with proper clutch work versus this..... Hopefully someday, however it will all be electric by then!

@red1329 You may have took it wrong, I'm not hopeful electric will replace gas, hopeful they will get it figured out with a strong tranny.

 

[Hometeam]

Give the after market a little more time and i think the Talon will have the power parts. Half of the Talons existence has been during fakovid19. A properly suspension set up Turbo Talon will handle the dunes better than a can am will handle the trails IMO and in my experience. We did basically win the Baja 1000 without a turbo on it. But the can am is better on the sand but man is it fun pounding gears in the sand and trails on a Talon!! I have more fun banging gears than I would going a little bit faster in the whoops!

 

[HPnMORE4J]

I would love the ability to put one to the test and compare, again I'm a big Honda fan across the board starting in 1971 with my first 50cc.

 

[GBell]

I'm sure you can muster up 300+ hp out of the Talon motor with enough money and the right skills but you used the "reliable" word. None of those high HP machines are going to be reliable. The clutch, belt, trans, gears, diffs, axles, etc. will never reliably handle that much power.

There are reports of stock Talon pistons failing with the Jackson Turbo when used in long races. Also, someone here toasted their 1-3-5 clutch with the Jackson Turbo (although I believe he over boosted his and was getting a little more power).

You can reliably add the Jackson Turbo (~165 HP) and for the dunes, I suggest replacing the pistons with some CP forged.

You can also reliably do the Hess top end work (~135 HP) for a little cheaper and again, I suggest the forged pistons for the dunes.

DO NOT waste your money on exhaust and tunes, they are all BS and add little to nothing. The claimed HP gains are all just sales hype. They compare their worse stock dyno run against their best modded run when in reality, the average runs are much closer together. If they disclosed all the facts, they wouldn't sell anything.

11HP gain that PwrTune claims with an exhaust and a tune is a pipe dream. I had all that crap and it did nothing but make noise and run funky. The HMF and DynoJet tunes were not any better (or worse for that matter). I took it all off except I use that expensive tuner to raise the rev limiter and lower the fan temps.

I will clarify your thoughts on the stock pistons. I have had my turbo talon to the dunes twice my unit has less then 100 miles on it the pistons are cracked and one skirt broke off. I will say this if you have a talon with a turbo on it the pistons WILL BE CRACKED!!!

 

[HPnMORE4J]

I will clarify your thoughts on the stock pistons. I have had my turbo talon to the dunes twice my unit has less then 100 miles on it the pistons are cracked and one skirt broke off. I will say this if you have a talon with a turbo on it the pistons WILL BE CRACKED!!!View attachment 268509View attachment 268510

🤨😲🙄😬

eh, I think there is some more R&D needing to be done before slapping on a Turbo and using it like it's supposed to.
The dunes are pretty unforgiving on many things. I wonder how hard riding, banging gears with that tranny with that turbo and riding with paddles will hold up as well.

 

[Killer223]

How long does it take to tear down and swap out pistons?

 

[GBell]

How long does it take to tear down and swap out it d

 

[GBell]

Its not to bad time wise but the parts are getting hard to find right now. just finding a head gasket is tough. Then getting pistons is another problem.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Mixing a turbo and cast pistons is just asking for trouble. I wonder how many Jackson kits are out there running around with busted stock pistons that the owners are not aware of?

Was yours noisy or have excessive blow by? What made you dig into the engine in the first place?

 

[GBell]

🤨😲🙄😬

eh, I think there is some more R&D needing to be done before slapping on a Turbo and using it like it's supposed to.
The dunes are pretty unforgiving on many things. I wonder how hard riding, banging gears with that tranny with that turbo and riding with paddles will hold up as well.

I think the transmission will be absolutely fine. May need clutches at some point. I run 32" paddles and it works great! I love the quality of the Talon I just think a turbo kit especially for what it costs should come with pistons.