31,000 mile Talon R report

[hondabob]

Its easy to come up with some Honda Happy talk. My Talon has been amazing and its so much Fun to drive. My belt drive buddies are envious. The Polaris Turbo’s have to have the oil changed every 500 miles. That alone is a deal breaker for me plus having to deal with a belt drive. I’m changing oil every 3 weeks at 1,200 miles. With the improved suspension it’s a really fun ride. My brakes are still at near new condition. I only occasionally use them hard when I have to brake hard for a rut that blends in and is hard to see. The 2022 improved front dif oil seal worked great for about 200 miles. Now its leaking again but not as bad. I will know more in another 1,000 miles. After 5 new seals and a new axle it looks like a new dif case may be next. I told my dealer its going to need a new dif case to fix the oil leakage a year ago. My buddy has a Talon that only seeps slightly and needs to be cleaned every 3,000 miles. Two other Talons don’t leak at all. My passenger side has never leaked or had a seepage problem. It’s the same axle and seal on both sides. I finally called customer relations and complained so I have a case number now. They can see all the warranty work with the only major problem was the steering rack and the drive shaft failures. I also had one front and one rear wheel bearing replaced.

 

[Dankathy]

Very envious of your usage. What all have you done with the suspension? How many miles do you do between shock rebuilds? Care to say who you use for shock work?

 

[HBarlow]

Its easy to come up with some Honda Happy talk. My Talon has been amazing and its so much Fun to drive. My belt drive buddies are envious. The Polaris Turbo’s have to have the oil changed every 500 miles. That alone is a deal breaker for me plus having to deal with a belt drive. I’m changing oil every 3 weeks at 1,200 miles. With the improved suspension it’s a really fun ride. My brakes are still at near new condition. I only occasionally use them hard when I have to brake hard for a rut that blends in and is hard to see. The 2022 improved front dif oil seal worked great for about 200 miles. Now its leaking again but not as bad. I will know more in another 1,000 miles. After 5 new seals and a new axle it looks like a new dif case may be next. I told my dealer its going to need a new dif case to fix the oil leakage a year ago. My buddy has a Talon that only seeps slightly and needs to be cleaned every 3,000 miles. Two other Talons don’t leak at all. My passenger side has never leaked or had a seepage problem. It’s the same axle and seal on both sides. I finally called customer relations and complained so I have a case number now. They can see all the warranty work with the only major problem was the steering rack and the drive shaft failures. I also had one front and one rear wheel bearing replaced.

That's a great report. Could you post photos of your Talon in it's environment and one of the odometer?

Could the axle with the repeat seal leaks be slightly bent enough that the outer end wobbles slightly and wears the seal prematurely?

 

[CID]

That's a great report. Could you post photos of your Talon in it's environment and one of the odometer?

Could the axle with the repeat seal leaks be slightly bent enough that the outer end wobbles slightly and wears the seal prematurely?

The left front axle seal seems to be something Honda can't (or won't) fix, many Talons have that leaking seal. I don't know what the 'root cause' is but Honda really dropped the ball there. My first Talon leaked enough to puddle on the trailer, the second is just dirty around the boot. :-|

 

[P1K5Dave]

Have you ever thought about sending your oil in for testing after use? If I were changing it out every 3 weeks, I'd really be curious to know.

If you're not inhaling a lot of dust, I'd bet you could increase that interval.

 

[hondabob]

Both of my Talons have had the dif seal leak from new. Both have had new seals and a axle. The 2022 seal still leaks enough to make a mess. I don't clean it so the shop can send in pictures. It looks like the dif case is the problem like I told then over a year ago. I will get it fixed this summer.

 

[Enigma]

Both of my Talons have had the dif seal leak from new. Both have had new seals and a axle. The 2022 seal still leaks enough to make a mess. I don't clean it so the shop can send in pictures. It looks like the dif case is the problem like I told then over a year ago. I will get it fixed this summer. View attachment 326842View attachment 326843View attachment 326844

Hondabob, you can get 2022 parts?? I have not seen the announcements on the 2022 Talons or did I not get the memo? You said. "The 2022 seal still leaks enough to make a mess". Thanks for any clarification.

 

[hondabob]

The 2022 seals are another improvement. Also the 2021 seal was improved. The 2022 seal may fix some but it doesn't look like it will fix mine. I will deal with it after another 2,000 miles. Some 2022 parts have been available for awhile like the sub trans shift star and selector shaft.

 

[Doogle]

I only have 1000 miles on my R. I had the driver side seal replaced at about 800 miles. In my opinion, Honda keeps talking improved seal design. BS. They know by now where their problem is. It is cheaper to replace seals than fix the real problem. Seal and bearing manufacturers know their business and are unlikely to be fail points. I haven't looked at the differential diagram, but my guess is that the casing isn't sturdy enough. My vent line is good. And if it were a plugged vent, I would have expected to see some seals leak on the passenger side also.

If the casing is made by the same company that made the driveshaft yokes, it might be poor quality control. Shaft-to-bore misalignment or shaft finish may contribute. Or it may be poor engineering.

 

[1HasBeen]

The bearings seem pretty darn narrow to me, given the angular load they must see from the CV cup as the suspension cycles. Even the best seal design can only take so much whip/oscillation. There is the difference in failure rate left vs right, though.

 

[HBarlow]

The bearings and seals were probably calculated to be adequate with a small margin of safety by Honda engineers based on factory standard wheel and tire sizes.

Use of larger (heavier) tires put added stress on axle bearings, particularly if the wheels and tires are not perfectly balanced.

 

[Enigma]

The 2022 seals are another improvement. Also the 2021 seal was improved. The 2022 seal may fix some but it doesn't look like it will fix mine. I will deal with it after another 2,000 miles. Some 2022 parts have been available for awhile like the sub trans shift star and selector shaft.

Thanks for the response HondaBob. I did not know about the parts availility. Glad to have someone on the club that really understand the parts side of Honda.

 

[Doogle]

The bearings were probably calculated to be adequate with a small margin of safety by Honda engineers based on factory standard wheel and tire sizes.

Use of larger (heavier) tires put added stress on axle bearings, particularly if the wheels and tires are not perfectly balanced.

I am still using the stock setup. Some people suggest using their idea of a better oil to help the problem. I would like to see their credentials on how to spec oil. I want a discussion with this person that knows better than the Honda enginnering team.

I don't know about bearings not being heavy enough. But if that were the problem, I would expect to see some bearing failures with seal replacements.

 

[1HasBeen]

I am still using the stock setup. Some people suggest using their idea of a better oil to help the problem. I would like to see their credentials on how to spec oil. I want a discussion with this person that knows better than the Honda enginnering team.

I don't know about bearings not being heavy enough. But if that were the problem, I would expect to see some bearing failures with seal replacements.

I relayed the bearing idea as a possibility based on actual real-world experience with similar persistent seal failures on a JD transaxle when I was a dealer. Bearing failures were extremely low, yet seals failed repeatedly, until the bearings were revised.

 

[HBarlow]

I am still using the stock setup. Some people suggest using their idea of a better oil to help the problem. I would like to see their credentials on how to spec oil. I want a discussion with this person that knows better than the Honda enginnering team.

I don't know about bearings not being heavy enough. But if that were the problem, I would expect to see some bearing failures with seal replacements.

When someone posts about a problem in a discussion website he/she will usually receive the thoughts, opinions, and suggestions of readers. Perhaps you should tell us in advance which answers and suggestions you will consider to your liking.

A very fundamental understanding of the function of axle bearings and seals suggests that if the seal is reportedly failing, either the axle surface the seal mates with is rough or the axle is wobbling slightly in the bearing.

 

[HBarlow]

I only have 1000 miles on my R. I had the driver side seal replaced at about 800 miles. In my opinion, Honda keeps talking improved seal design. BS. They know by now where their problem is. It is cheaper to replace seals than fix the real problem. Seal and bearing manufacturers know their business and are unlikely to be fail points. I haven't looked at the differential diagram, but my guess is that the casing isn't sturdy enough. My vent line is good. And if it were a plugged vent, I would have expected to see some seals leak on the passenger side also.

If the casing is made by the same company that made the driveshaft yokes, it might be poor quality control. Shaft-to-bore misalignment or shaft finish may contribute. Or it may be poor engineering.

Your signature photo shows your Talon with oversized wheels and tires suspended in air as it takes a flying leap. I wonder . . . if there's any connection between the heavier wheels and tires and jumping with axle seal problems?

 

[Doogle]

When someone posts about a problem in a discussion website he/she will usually receive the thoughts, opinions, and suggestions of readers. Perhaps you should tell us in advance which answers and suggestions you will consider to your liking

A very fundamental understanding of the function of axle bearings and seals suggests that if the seal is reportedly failing, either the axle surface the seal mates with is rough or the axle is wobbling slightly in the bearing.

I was an industrial mechanic/machinist for 31 years. Primarily working on pumps, compressor, agitators, turbines and their drives. I've replaced lip seals, mechanical seals, huge and tiny bearings. I've made shafts that these bearings and seals were used on. You said "Perhaps you should tell us in advance which answers and suggestions you will consider to your liking." I'm not asking for any suggestions in this thread. I was suggesting that a different oil isn't the answer.

And as far as the bearing being an issue, when the same seals are being replaced 2,3,4 times the mechanic probably inspected the bearing. And if the bearing weren't heavy enough, I think there would be some failures. As far as misalignment, most lip seals will tolerate .010 to .015". Another consideration is the type of seal used. Seals can be directional or bi-directional. A directional seal could "pump" oil out instead of back in to the differential. My guess is that the wrong direction seal would not wait 500-1000 miles to leak. But it would explain why the seal leaks on the left and not the right side, if they use the same seal on both sides.

 

[Doogle]

Your signature photo shows your Talon with oversized wheels and tires suspended in air as it takes a flying leap. I wonder . . . if there's any connection between the heavier wheels and tires and jumping with axle seal problems?

I'm guessing you are referring to someone else here. My Talon is posed (nobody in the driver seat) on a rock with the original 28" tires and wheels.