P700 Power Loss

R

Rooster1554

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Mar 30, 2019
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  1. 700-2
Long read.... I'm about ready to burn my 700 to the ground. Here's the story... replaced rings, crosshatched bore, valve guide seals, rear diff axle seal, prop shaft knuckle boot, wheel bearings, air filter, LR cv axle, plug wire boot, spark plug, and all associated gaskets. I also serviced the rear diff and changed the oil. I sprayed out the horrible factory intake with water (while it was removed), and fully removed and reinstalled the entire exhaust. When I removed the muffler and spark arrestor, a small piece of metal (about the size of a quarter) fell out of the muffler body. I tapped all over and inside the muffler to listen for broken welds, etc, heard nothing. Spark arrestor was pretty bad, so I cleaned it before reinstalling. I put dielectric grease in all of the connections I took loose and payed really close attention to the service manual. When I was disassembling, I noticed the cam seemed "off a tooth" if that's even possible. I mean, maybe 15°. I timed it per the manual on reassembly, made sure the cam chain slack was on the tensioner side, and released the tensioner. Everything seemed to be fine, and I confidently fired it up. After 2-4 seconds of idling, I could hear (what i believe) the cam chain slapping. I removed the end plug from the tensioner and manually extended the tensioner arm just a little and the sound went away. I have a new tensioner on order. So, I let it heat cycle a couple times, and went on a test ride.
I tore the top end down because I was using oil. Combustion chamber looked good, plug looked good, and the spot on the air filter where the blowby hose is showed no signs of oil puking or excess burning. In fact, that was the cleanest part of the filter. Intake and valves looked good. Valve guide seals didn't appear damaged, but I replaced them anyway. I still don't know where the oil was going. There are no external leaks that I can see. Before the work, it would run about 43ish with 27" Dirt Commanders. On my test drive, I slowly maxed the throttle after a few miles. 37mph. Seriously. WTF. Runs fine, in neutral, starts up immediately and sounds ok. I looked over the cam lobes when I removed it (don't have a micrometer) and didn't see any visual signs of excess wear or damage. Using the search function, I found where some units had a muffler baffle break loose and restrict the exhaust. Again, I pulled the muffler looking, tapping, and listening for internal damage. I couldn't find anything. Obviously something came apart in there because the little quarter-sized piece of metal fell out, but nothing rattles or chirps. I know new rings need to seat, but I've never seen that much power loss from seating rings. It feels like it just runs out of breath. Aside from buying a new exhaust to "see if that fixes it" I'm out of ideas. Anybody seen this before? The pic is the piece that fell out of the muffler. I'm standing here with the matches...lol

20221008 164834
 
Glock21user

Glock21user

" Nothing succeeds like excess "
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Dec 16, 2018
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Livingston county, Mi.
Ownership

  1. 700-4
Long read.... I'm about ready to burn my 700 to the ground. Here's the story... replaced rings, crosshatched bore, valve guide seals, rear diff axle seal, prop shaft knuckle boot, wheel bearings, air filter, LR cv axle, plug wire boot, spark plug, and all associated gaskets. I also serviced the rear diff and changed the oil. I sprayed out the horrible factory intake with water (while it was removed), and fully removed and reinstalled the entire exhaust. When I removed the muffler and spark arrestor, a small piece of metal (about the size of a quarter) fell out of the muffler body. I tapped all over and inside the muffler to listen for broken welds, etc, heard nothing. Spark arrestor was pretty bad, so I cleaned it before reinstalling. I put dielectric grease in all of the connections I took loose and payed really close attention to the service manual. When I was disassembling, I noticed the cam seemed "off a tooth" if that's even possible. I mean, maybe 15°. I timed it per the manual on reassembly, made sure the cam chain slack was on the tensioner side, and released the tensioner. Everything seemed to be fine, and I confidently fired it up. After 2-4 seconds of idling, I could hear (what i believe) the cam chain slapping. I removed the end plug from the tensioner and manually extended the tensioner arm just a little and the sound went away. I have a new tensioner on order. So, I let it heat cycle a couple times, and went on a test ride.
I tore the top end down because I was using oil. Combustion chamber looked good, plug looked good, and the spot on the air filter where the blowby hose is showed no signs of oil puking or excess burning. In fact, that was the cleanest part of the filter. Intake and valves looked good. Valve guide seals didn't appear damaged, but I replaced them anyway. I still don't know where the oil was going. There are no external leaks that I can see. Before the work, it would run about 43ish with 27" Dirt Commanders. On my test drive, I slowly maxed the throttle after a few miles. 37mph. Seriously. WTF. Runs fine, in neutral, starts up immediately and sounds ok. I looked over the cam lobes when I removed it (don't have a micrometer) and didn't see any visual signs of excess wear or damage. Using the search function, I found where some units had a muffler baffle break loose and restrict the exhaust. Again, I pulled the muffler looking, tapping, and listening for internal damage. I couldn't find anything. Obviously something came apart in there because the little quarter-sized piece of metal fell out, but nothing rattles or chirps. I know new rings need to seat, but I've never seen that much power loss from seating rings. It feels like it just runs out of breath. Aside from buying a new exhaust to "see if that fixes it" I'm out of ideas. Anybody seen this before? The pic is the piece that fell out of the muffler. I'm standing here with the matches...lol

View attachment 357961
Pics of said machine and year might help us.
Burn it if you like but that won't help it to run better.
How does it crank over, does it idle ok and what about throttle response not only from idle but through the entire operating window?
Sounds like the timing is off a little, it isn't the exhaust I am confident in saying.
Welcome to the zoo from 48353.
 
R

Rooster1554

New Member
Supporting Member
Mar 30, 2019
10
25
3
South Carolina
Ownership

  1. 700-2
Pics of said machine and year might help us.
Burn it if you like but that won't help it to run better.
How does it crank over, does it idle ok and what about throttle response not only from idle but through the entire operating window?
Sounds like the timing is off a little, it isn't the exhaust I am confident in saying.
Welcome to the zoo from 48353.
Sorry, forgot about the year. 2014, 440 hours, 4400 miles. It actually seems to fire off faster after cranking now than prior to the maintenance. Idle seems steady and appropriate. I haven't stomped it from a standstill yet, but throttle response is exactly what I would expect it to be until about 30mph...then it takes a sec to get to 35, then a long sec to hit 37.

20221008 120916 20220920 123509
 
DRZRon1

DRZRon1

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May 11, 2019
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  1. Talon X
did u by chance do a compression test before and after?

I don't have a 700, but after reading on here, the 700 cams are known to wear

the piece that fell out, I get it, wtf, but at this point may just have been there from day 1 and left in there

can you do a hot lap with muffler off to rule that out

but seems like timing, possibly cam wear as mentioned above
 
R

Rooster1554

New Member
Supporting Member
Mar 30, 2019
10
25
3
South Carolina
Ownership

  1. 700-2
did u by chance do a compression test before and after?

I don't have a 700, but after reading on here, the 700 cams are known to wear

the piece that fell out, I get it, wtf, but at this point may just have been there from day 1 and left in there

can you do a hot lap with muffler off to rule that out

but seems like timing, possibly cam wear as mentioned above
Compression was 125psi before the teardown. I haven't checked it since. I'll try the hot lap later today. Right now I'm taking the cab back apart to check the valves. Ugh.
 
R

Rooster1554

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Supporting Member
Mar 30, 2019
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South Carolina
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  1. 700-2
Valves are still in spec. Wouldn't that rule out a mechanical timing problem? I'm leaning more towards a worn cam. Does anyone know of an aftermarket cam? I've seen reference to a HotCam, but I can't find them anywhere. For all I know, they may not be available anymore.
 
DRZRon1

DRZRon1

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May 11, 2019
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  1. Talon X
no expert here.

valves clearance in spec, good, check.....

timing is timing and if its off valves can be all good, what is interesting is it idles/runs well, your observation of 15 degrees off when you took it apart is a possible clue as its not timed the same anymore?

if the pic of the cam online is accurate, 38 tooth cam, so 9.5 degrees per tooth

id suggest double check timing and if ok then suggest measuring cam lobes to the book spec

I looked at some other posts and it appears everyone using Honda OEM cams...

good luck
 
R

Rooster1554

New Member
Supporting Member
Mar 30, 2019
10
25
3
South Carolina
Ownership

  1. 700-2
no expert here.

valves clearance in spec, good, check.....

timing is timing and if its off valves can be all good, what is interesting is it idles/runs well, your observation of 15 degrees off when you took it apart is a possible clue as its not timed the same anymore?

if the pic of the cam online is accurate, 38 tooth cam, so 9.5 degrees per tooth

id suggest double check timing and if ok then suggest measuring cam lobes to the book spec

I looked at some other posts and it appears everyone using Honda OEM cams...

good luck
Pulled the cam this morning, cleaned it up and put it under some good light. It shows signs of wear, but no grooves or divots that I can feel. I've ordered a micrometer. Already ordered a new cam and buckets too. When the mic gets here I'll check it and post results. Here are some pics of the cam. Again, 2014 with about 440 hrs and 4400 miles.

20221010 125827 20221010 125845 20221010 125909 20221010 125917 20221010 125944
 
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DRZRon1

DRZRon1

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May 11, 2019
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PA
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  1. Talon X
we’re you able to get a compression test at all or just dig into checking the cam?

only the caliper will tell if cam is worn

possibly @HondaTech can advise on the timing pic -

Not sure of camera angle but dang it looks off a tooth if the bottom line is to be parallel to the engine case
 
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Jerryg

Jerryg

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Sep 24, 2020
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  1. Other Brand
Pulled the cam this morning, cleaned it up and put it under some good light. It shows signs of wear, but no grooves or divots that I can feel. I've ordered a micrometer. Already ordered a new cam and buckets too. When the mic gets here I'll check it and post results. Here are some pics of the cam. Again, 2014 with about 440 hrs and 4400 miles.

View attachment 358242 View attachment 358243 View attachment 358244 View attachment 358245 View attachment 358246
That cam does not look normal, you may have some worn lobes.
 

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