Talon Lift Kit Geometry Change

[Jon M]

For a while, Ive wanted to increase ground clearance without portals because... $.
I recently found a lift kit that uses front and rear brackets instead of spring spacers. This lift is accomplished by changing the spring/control arm geometric relationship. I understand that the change in geometry also changes the spring force exerted on the control arm and other suspension geometries. I would like to know the change in spring force so that I can make an educated guess on how the car will ride differently - in this case, how much stiffer.

Its been a long time since I've attempted calculations like these so it might take me a while. So before I begin... I'll ask: has anyone here performed similar calculations? Are you willing share them?

For reference, here is a picture of the geometry change (shock angle change is approximately 8deg):

 

[Remington]

Its been done on P1’s for a long time. I for one dont like the geometry change. Makes the ride harsher, not massive but just enough. Its all a preference, but most that have had them say they like it and dont notice any difference, but once they remove the lift and go back to the way it was designed, they then aggree with the assessment. Basically what I did. I would assume its the same way with the Talon. Key thing is to not overthink it, youll go crazy trying to re engineer the wheel! Just sayin..

 

[Jon M]

youll go crazy trying to re engineer the wheel! Just sayin..

You are probably right... I just like to see the numbers first.
Im getting new springs from Weller, so I want to make an educated guess if softer springs can compensate for the different geometry.

 

[Remington]

You are probably right... I just like to see the numbers first.
Im getting new springs from Weller, so I want to make an educated guess if softer springs can compensate for the different geometry.

I personally would not. Cuz if u decide to do the lift then don't like it for the ride then u take it off, now those springs u bought are 💩 softer springs will help little yes, but your still in that vertical position that compromises other things than just shocks although shocks are ur #1 issue with bracket lifts. Again, don't over think it, it will cost u $ 🤣 Imo if ur spending all that cabbage on shocks, why don't u do it riight znd once and get some new arms add some preload and be done with it.

You know with this question, you've opened the door foraflood of mixed opinions right? I'm just giving u mo
On what did and did not worked for me om my P1 and I didn't do that om my Talon

 

[Smitty335]

For a while, Ive wanted to increase ground clearance without portals because... $.
I recently found a lift kit that uses front and rear brackets instead of spring spacers. This lift is accomplished by changing the spring/control arm geometric relationship. I understand that the change in geometry also changes the spring force exerted on the control arm and other suspension geometries. I would like to know the change in spring force so that I can make an educated guess on how the car will ride differently - in this case, how much stiffer.

Its been a long time since I've attempted calculations like these so it might take me a while. So before I begin... I'll ask: has anyone here performed similar calculations? Are you willing share them?

For reference, here is a picture of the geometry change (shock angle change is approximately 8deg):
View attachment 364670

Now draw a line that shows the affected camber of the lift on the tires.

 

[Remington]

Now draw a line that shows the affected camber of the lift on the tires.

Good idea Rooster. I also forgot to mention that it will change the camber in the rear with the lift. He will need to update the control arms anyway to fix that ughhhh
I like the do it once theory

 

[Smitty335]

Good idea Rooster. I also forgot to mention that it will change the camber in the rear with the lift. He will need to update the control arms anyway to fix that ughhhh
I like the do it once theory

And front if he's got the lift on the front?

 

[Jon M]

Now draw a line that shows the affected camber of the lift on the tires

It almost looks like camber improves or is unchanged??? This could be the picture angle though. The photo is taken from the center of the talon and skews the perception of camber.

I understand that the lift will affect camber and probably a whole lot more (including track width on an already narrow X). I wish I had better pictures or could see one in person.

 

[Jon M]

I personally would not. Cuz if u decide to do the lift then don't like it for the ride then u take it off, now those springs u bought are 💩 softer springs will help little yes, but your still in that vertical position that compromises other things than just shocks although shocks are ur #1 issue with bracket lifts. Again, don't over think it, it will cost u $ 🤣

Good point. I am going full soft on the shocks no matter what the lift kit situation is. I just want to make an informed guess about how much of that softness is going to be negated by the lift kit.

Imo if ur spending all that cabbage on shocks, why don't u do it riight znd once and get some new arms add some preload and be done with it.

You know with this question, you've opened the door foraflood of mixed opinions right? I'm just giving u mo
On what did and did not worked for me om my P1 and I didn't do that om my Talon

More preload is certainly an option. But for now, I don't have extra money to spend on them fancy a-arms.
Question: are there A-arms that will give you an inch or two of lift?

I'll accept all the opinions/perspectives - great, good, bad and downright stupid. I'm not here to pass judgement. I'm here to collect data and opinions.

 

[Remington]

Good point. I am going full soft on the shocks no matter what the lift kit situation is. I just want to make an informed guess about how much of that softness is going to be negated by the lift kit.


More preload is certainly an option. But for now, I don't have extra money to spend on them fancy a-arms.
Question: are there A-arms that will give you an inch or two of lift?

I'll accept all the opinions/perspectives - great, good, bad and downright stupid. I'm not here to pass judgement. I'm here to collect data and opinions.

Whats “downright stupid?” This is experience and sorry its not the engineered answers you want! 🤷‍♂️

Back to your other questions, but first, you never stated exactly WHY you want the lift? that pic u have isnt going show u the camber and TRUE difference, its a “stock” photo, not a true photo of the machine. I was just telling you, if u have $2k to spend on re valving your shocks and new springs, you should be able to do your lift the right way, not what I call a half ass cheep way. Or If money is an issue, do just springs Like I did on my X2 from ST ($600) and new arms and spacers for now. I now have most of what is the better way to achieve what your doing. It had vastly improved the machine. Ill send the shocks out to get re valved in the future. Looks like there aint many if any that has gone the bracket lift for your rig or havent had it long enough to give a full review unless there just sitting back. So Id say, Tag your it for a full comprehensive review to report back on if u really want to go that route. Just sayin…
Also, there “fancy arms” I can show you those if u like
Check out SATV and youll see what I have. In fact, if u have been looking at other threads, youll see that @SuperATV will give u a club discount on accessories as well. Hopes this helps.

 

[CID]

Some points -
1. You live in the Phoenix area, lots of opportunities to carry some speed between the rocky sections, it's the desert after all.
2. Without changing arms, going up will cause the track to narrow, it's physics. Put a floor jack under the center of either end, jack up and watch the tires slide inward.
3. As noted, the X is already kinda narrow at 64".
4. Are you wanting to rock crawl 'all the time'? - then height and track width are less important to you than me; there are times I just wanna boogie.

5. Install a 1/2" Trail Armor skid, 32" tires, aftermarket springs and tighten your preload to whatever ground clearance you want. Live with it and slide over the rocks you don't clear. It's my opinion that 32's are as much tire as the Talon can handle and still be fun without internal gear reduction.
6. You 'could' run 4+3 or 5+2 wheels on all 4 corners for more track width but that messes with your scrub radius and I have no idea how that affects handling.
7. Besides $$$$, portals bring a whole nuther set of issues into your life, like reliability and messing up your tilt table number to name a couple of them. Now you've built yourself a rock crawler specific buggy, OK if that's what you want.
8. There are no unicorns. I think Honda did an admirable job of bringing a well rounded SxS to the market. We can turn it into whatever our specific needs/wants happen to be, for a price. Pick yer poison.

 

[Adam490]

This should just about do it

 

[Jon M]

This should just about do it

View attachment 364766

 

[Jon M]

Some points -
1. You live in the Phoenix area, lots of opportunities to carry some speed between the rocky sections, it's the desert after all.
2. Without changing arms, going up will cause the track to narrow, it's physics. Put a floor jack under the center of either end, jack up and watch the tires slide inward.
3. As noted, the X is already kinda narrow at 64".
4. Are you wanting to rock crawl 'all the time'? - then height and track width are less important to you than me; there are times I just wanna boogie.

5. Install a 1/2" Trail Armor skid, 32" tires, aftermarket springs and tighten your preload to whatever ground clearance you want. Live with it and slide over the rocks you don't clear. It's my opinion that 32's are as much tire as the Talon can handle and still be fun without internal gear reduction.
6. You 'could' run 4+3 or 5+2 wheels on all 4 corners for more track width but that messes with your scrub radius and I have no idea how that affects handling.
7. Besides $$$$, portals bring a whole nuther set of issues into your life, like reliability and messing up your tilt table number to name a couple of them. Now you've built yourself a rock crawler specific buggy, OK if that's what you want.
8. There are no unicorns. I think Honda did an admirable job of bringing a well rounded SxS to the market. We can turn it into whatever our specific needs/wants happen to be, for a price. Pick yer poison.

These are all great points.
Boogie'n is fun! I used to do it a lot but slowed down a few years ago after I saw a few friends get messed up from some knarly wrecks. My natural interest has always been low speed technical crawling anyways.
I intend on doing some calculations to see how much the track width actually narrows.
My wheel budget is wrapped up in the new tire budget. For now I'm running stock rear wheels and 32" at each corner with 1.25" spacers in the rear.
IGR is on my list to do but there are no installers west of Dallas. So, until I learn how to do it or bring my machine to Dallas, IGR isn't happening soon.
I intend for the machine to be specific to crawling but still be manageable on the street and dirt roads (key work manageable, not perfect). I really don't have any interest in bombing through the desert.

 

[Jon M]

Whats “downright stupid?” This is experience and sorry its not the engineered answers you want! 🤷‍♂️

Back to your other questions, but first, you never stated exactly WHY you want the lift? that pic u have isnt going show u the camber and TRUE difference, its a “stock” photo, not a true photo of the machine. I was just telling you, if u have $2k to spend on re valving your shocks and new springs, you should be able to do your lift the right way, not what I call a half ass cheep way. Or If money is an issue, do just springs Like I did on my X2 from ST ($600) and new arms and spacers for now. I now have most of what is the better way to achieve what your doing. It had vastly improved the machine. Ill send the shocks out to get re valved in the future. Looks like there aint many if any that has gone the bracket lift for your rig or havent had it long enough to give a full review unless there just sitting back. So Id say, Tag your it for a full comprehensive review to report back on if u really want to go that route. Just sayin…
Also, there “fancy arms” I can show you those if u like
Check out SATV and youll see what I have. In fact, if u have been looking at other threads, youll see that @SuperATV will give u a club discount on accessories as well. Hopes this helps.

I wasn't referencing anything specific and certainly not your points.
"downright stupid" is that modification that we have all seen someone do where we just shake our heads in disbelief. A few years ago, I saw a homebuilt rzr cage made with square tube that did not use the B pillar mounts, just the A and C pillars...

The reason I am considering a lift kit is to increase ground clearance. Reworked shocks are #1 on my list. Those will give me a better ride and a little bit of lift as a bonus. A lift kit might give me that extra 2" for cheap. I just want to make an informed guess about how much nice ride is going to be negated by the lift kit. Im willing to do the calculations. Just want to know if anyone else has done them too.

 

[Robobrainiac]

This should just about do it

View attachment 364766

I bet that thing has the RB3 rack, SuperATV tie rods, tradinghouse fender cutouts, bayownbeer vent extension, NTC koozie, secret snuff tune, and a HondaSXS injector pigtail. The holy grail is the picture Remington gets to see to verify it.

 

[Red500]

I bet that thing has the RB3 rack, SuperATV tie rods, tradinghouse fender cutouts, bayownbeer vent extension, NTC koozie, secret snuff tune, and a HondaSXS injector pigtail. The holy grail is the picture Remington gets to see to verify it.

Where does one get this elusive "NTC koozie" you speak of.

 

[NTCPrezJB]

Where does one get this elusive "NTC koozie" you speak of.

Ed Zachery!

 

[SuperATV]

I know your very first sentence in this thread says "without portals because... $", but I'm going to have to respond with....

.....PORTALS! 🤣 🤣

They don't effect the axle or suspension angle. Offer all the lift you could want. Give you room for bigger tires. Give you gear reduction and tons of low end power. Regrow hair in bald spots. And...drop panties every time you drive by the ladies at the ride park.

Add some forward A-arms....pick your desired tire size....and roll on. Done once, and its a beast.

 

[Jon M]

I know your very first sentence in this thread says "without portals because... $", but I'm going to have to respond with....

.....PORTALS! 🤣 🤣

They don't effect the axle or suspension angle. Offer all the lift you could want. Give you room for bigger tires. Give you gear reduction and tons of low end power. Regrow hair in bald spots. And...drop panties every time you drive by the ladies at the ride park.

Add some forward A-arms....pick your desired tire size....and roll on. Done once, and its a beast.

View attachment 364797

My hair keeps running away from my face, so this is tempting...
But my wife just had our third son. So I dont need no more britches droppin! Im out!