P1000 The "Neutral Switch"

[bumperm]

Posted for those who are obsessed with curiosity about the inner workings of things they have no business getting into:

Early neutral switches had some problems. When it fails, it usually results in throwing a 5 - 2 code and going into 1st gear "limp home" mode (from what I understand. My '21 P1000-5 SE did that recently. I removed the neutral switch and tested it the wrong way, thinking the exterior wire lead contact (left end of "A") would short to the body "G" when the button (right end of "E") was pushed. This is not how it works. The part is more a spring loaded connector than it is a switch. Part "A's" body is an insulator, as it part "F". "B" is an oil seal, "C" is a sliding contact that slides on the left side of pin "E" and maintains contact through when the right side of pin "E" is pushed by the actuator (inside motor). At no time do the "switch" internal parts make or break, though if there was a fault in this part, the most likely failure would be an intermittent contact between the wiper "C" and the pin shaft "E".

I took it apart carefully, using a parting tool on the lathe, figuring I might put it back together if I fixed it. I think there may have been nothing wrong with it and I may still have a problem elsewhere &^%$!

 

[Admin]

 

[CID]

I love trouble shooting forensics, Bumperm; 😍 Thanks for the analyzation. 👍 Let us know what you find.

Wish I had bought a lathe when I was in my fiscal prime. 😥 Between a lathe and a welder, a man can make damn near anything he can dream.

 

[tjoreo]

The switch might not be the problem but it is still nice to get in and tear it apart and make sure it "Isn't" the problem. I believe there was a few people with a loose connection where the wire attaches to the switch. I believe it is just a single connection like my Honda foreman's temp switch. There are also some other people with that code that had rodent damage on the single blue wire going to the switch by the connector. For some reason they really like to chew on that one wire and make the rig throw the 52 code. Hope you don't have any more trouble but some other things to check if it does happen.

 

[CID]

... I believe there was a few people with a loose connection ...

I agree totally -

 

[NewHere2]

And that’s it ?? We still don’t know what the problem is/was ??

Following this, very intriguing.

 

[NewHere2]

Bumpers, Earlier someone post ohm readings on a NSS. Was that you ?

 

[DRZRon1]

it has to ground and the switch has to make and brake - its called a "switch" for a reason

part e is actuated and completes the grounding circuit - partly thru whatever is pushing on it

??

 

[CID]

it has to ground and the switch has to make and brake - its called a "switch" for a reason

part e is actuated and completes the grounding circuit - partly thru whatever is pushing on it

??

Good point. On my dual sport motorcycle the neutral switch was On or Off, shorting to ground like Bumperm theorized.

 

[HondaTech]

There is a nub on the shift drum that when in "neutral" pushes on the part labeled "E" and makes ground to compete the circuit.

What's so confusing about this switch is the misconception that it denotes Neutral when the sub trans is in the Neutral slot on the dash lever.

Instead it's showing when the 6 speed internal engine transmission is in Neutral. Which should only be true when the unit is sitting still and running.

This is why it defaults to 1st gear and lopes at idle, since the ecm is confused as to where the shift drum is located and thinks the clutch is engaged at idle in gear.

This is the same switch for the 4wd and diff lock indication on the P1K.

 

[bumperm]

Bumpers, Earlier someone post ohm readings on a NSS. Was that you ?

Yes, that was me. I was thinking it was like a normal "switch", built like most switches, where the contacts are inside the switch. This is more like a spring loaded contact plunger. Assuming the part is functional, there will always be continuity between the electrical connector at one end and the plunger pin at the other end of the device. So is it a switch or is it a contactor? The "switch" description sure had me testing it wrong after removal. In my defense, I had no clue if it was purely mechanical or if there was some sort of solid state device within before I opened it up.

 

[bumperm]

it has to ground and the switch has to make and brake - its called a "switch" for a reason

part e is actuated and completes the grounding circuit - partly thru whatever is pushing on it

??

No, the ground is entirely through what is pushing on the end of part "E". The body (including the threaded portion, which I first assumed was providing the ground) is completely insulated from the moving parts within.

 

[bumperm]

And that’s it ?? We still don’t know what the problem is/was ??

Following this, very intriguing.

Sadly, we don't. I'll get the new part in a week, then hope to heck that fixes it. I'm not even 50% sure it will. But y'all will be the second to know after anyone within earshot!

 

[thashane]

i had this issue on mine recently. turns out it was just a loose connection on the bullet terminal connector. fixed it by "tightening" the female connector. If it loosens up again, I'll solder them together

 

[bumperm]

i had this issue on mine recently. turns out it was just a loose connection on the bullet terminal connector. fixed it by "tightening" the female connector. If it loosens up again, I'll solder them together

Good point, I'll check that too.

 

[bumperm]

i had this issue on mine recently. turns out it was just a loose connection on the bullet terminal connector. fixed it by "tightening" the female connector. If it loosens up again, I'll solder them together

Okay, second reply . . . I was a little concerned about the idea of soldering a wire directly and using an in-line connector instead of the stock one. Specifically, I wanted to make sure the end terminal could withstand the heat, as shown, it can (I had soldering iron set at 700 F).

Note that I cut off part of the insulator,I did that as I wanted to check the diameter of the male contact and be sure I was measuring at its largest diameter. OD of the connector is 0.137", the stock wire clip-on connector has an inside diameter of .0.132", so plugged in all the way, seems a snug secure enough fit with good contact BUT*, in part due to the rubber over-boot cover on the wire connector, it is quite easy to not push the connector on all the way. The rubber boot can add to this, making it feel like it is fully pushed into place.

*When I first removed the female connector on mine, I distinctly thought to myself , "well, that didn't require much force to remove". Then I thought, okay, that's why they have the wire doubled back and under the mounting shield - so there little chance of strain on the wire.

Now I'm thinking it may not have been pushed on all the way and that certainly could have caused the intermittent problem. (I hope.) We shall see in a week when I get the new part.

BTW, I would not solder the connector, as shown in the picture, if I was going to solder it for actual use, it may be strong enough, but it's preferrable to have more of a mechanical connection as well. One way to do so would be to drill a small hole in the end of the male connector to accept the wire, then solder. Another way would be to use the stock female connector and solder that in-place, then add an in-line wire connector for ease of service. I don't plan on soldering my new part, but I sure will make sure the factory connector is pushed on all the way.

 

[thashane]

Okay, second reply . . . I was a little concerned about the idea of soldering a wire directly and using an in-line connector instead of the stock one. Specifically, I wanted to make sure the end terminal could withstand the heat, as shown, it can (I had soldering iron set at 700 F).

View attachment 369404

Note that I cut off part of the insulator,I did that as I wanted to check the diameter of the male contact and be sure I was measuring at its largest diameter. OD of the connector is 0.137", the stock wire clip-on connector has an inside diameter of .0.132", so plugged in all the way, seems a snug secure enough fit with good contact BUT*, in part due to the rubber over-boot cover on the wire connector, it is quite easy to not push the connector on all the way. The rubber boot can add to this, making it feel like it is fully pushed into place.

*When I first removed the female connector on mine, I distinctly thought to myself , "well, that didn't require much force to remove". Then I thought, okay, that's why they have the wire doubled back and under the mounting shield - so there little chance of strain on the wire.

Now I'm thinking it may not have been pushed on all the way and that certainly could have caused the intermittent problem. (I hope.) We shall see in a week when I get the new part.

BTW, I would not solder the connector, as shown in the picture, if I was going to solder it for actual use, it may be strong enough, but it's preferrable to have more of a mechanical connection as well. One way to do so would be to drill a small hole in the end of the male connector to accept the wire, then solder. Another way would be to use the stock female connector and solder that in-place, then add an in-line wire connector for ease of service. I don't plan on soldering my new part, but I sure will make sure the factory connector is pushed on all the way.

good info. I was just planning to solder between the bullet connectors, good to know the connector can take the heat.

 

[bumperm]

Soldering the connector to the switch may present another challenge. If directly soldered, you are gonna have to back twist the wire a bunch of turns due to the thread depth of the part. Adding an in-line connector would be the logical way to get around this. I think the stock connector will be the way to go, maybe tighten it up a bit, as @thashane did. Probably most have not had a problem with this part or its connector. I've noted other sloppy assembled parts on my machine, including a broken round file (doubtless being used to align seat bolt holes), a part of a lithium battery cover, from one of the assembly tools, missing bolts on seat mount and WAY over torqued door color panel mounting bolts. Mine must of been done just before quitting time on Friday.

 

[DRZRon1]

u get this fixed after the outstanding white paper thesis on the grounding switch?

 

[bumperm]

No, not yet, got sidetracked moving my machine tools from hangar to home, then making some gun parts. Also slowed down some due to heart damage, the timing and circumstances of which points to the Moderna vaccine as causal. Dang I'm sorry I got those shots.

I'll do an update when I can.

 

[DRZRon1]

hope u feel better quick