P1000 Clutch slipping Questions

[Crow_Hunter]

TL;DR

Those that have had clutch slipping issues, do you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range?

More information below:

I am still undecided about getting a P1000 but I am still thinking about it. I have been doing research on the clutch slipping issue. While I am not an expert in clutch design, I do have some basic knowledge on how they work and a BSME.

Basic assumptions/knowledge. A basic clutch works by having two friction "pads" that touch each other and "lock" together. The holding force of this "lock" is directly proportional to their frictional load, which is the friction constant (mu) X the clamping force (Normal). The friction constant (Mu) is controlled by the material the clutch plates are made of and the force (Normal) is controlled by the machine. In a hydraulic clutch, this is controlled by a hydraulic pump. The forces that want to decouple the clutch are the engine torque and the resistive force from the rest of the drive train (wheels, tires, weight of the machine, load etc.) When the load on the output or input shaft is greater than the frictional force, the clutch will slip.

So anything that increases the load on either the output or the input that doesn't also increase the pressure on the clutch plates will cause them to slip.

Now, I don't own a P1000 and I have only sat in one. But the way I understand it's operation is that is has a low range and a high range, much like a CVT transmission. The low range uses a sub-transmission that has a "smaller" drive gear than the high range. This gives a greater mechanical advantage for the engine and it requires the engine to run at a much higher RPM. In theory, this will also drive the oil pump harder, which should give more "Normal" load onto the clutches and increase their clamping force. Running the same thing in "high range" will result in lower clamp forces and the clutches will slip at a lower drive train load.

Now to the meat of my post. Most of the Youtube videos that I have been seeing online, at least the ones that show the dash (with the exception of one), are showing that people are putting the machine in High Range. Those that don't show the dash, but have the sound on, definitely sound like they are in High Range (versus the one I know was in Low Range)

Those of you that have had clutch slipping issues, did you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range? I don't mean to disparage anyone with this question at all. Originally my thought was that you should just drive around in High Range all the time unless you needed low end torque but I think this drive train is setup more like a CVT type of setup in which you should be in Low Range for everything other than fast driving on a flat level surface (like a road).

The only way that I can figure out that Honda can fix this would be to either increase the oil pump "strength" or change out to a more aggressive (better Mu) clutch plate.

What do you guys think?

 

[Admin]

 

[joeymt33]

I think you may be looking too deep. I still say it's a faulty part or assembly issue. There may be one or two failures that come from driver error.

I say that above because just yesterday I moved a 22' pontoon boat into the shop with it. The day before that I towed back a JD lawnmower that quit. I still ride on 30" tires when I'm out on a rec ride. I use a mix of high and low range and my machine has been flawless. Over 600 miles now.


Sent from my iPhone 10s

 

[bigdeal]

Looking at the parts list there is a change! Wouldn't that be the washer right before or after the clutch!

 

[Plumber32]

Looking at the parts list there is a change! Wouldn't that be the washer right before or after the clutch!
View attachment 15842

Looks like an update to me. When did they start using this washer?

 

[bigdeal]

Looks like an update to me. When did they start using this washer?

I think it has been different in red for over a month but i really don't when it was changed.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

I think it has been different in red for over a month but i really don't when it was changed.

Do you have a way to see what the old part number description is? If the new one is thicker, 1mm vs something thinner, maybe it is being used to increase the force on the clutch plate?

ETA:

I just searched on the internet and found what I was looking for. The description for the old part is 32 mm. Which is obviously a diameter, otherwise it would be an inch and a half thick!

But interestingly the new washer is used in Lawn tractors on a change shaft as a "Distance Washer" So it must be used as a spacer.

 

[bigdeal]

Do you have a way to see what the old part number description is? If the new one is thicker, 1mm vs something thinner, maybe it is being used to increase the force on the clutch plate?

Im not sure, i was just looking on the (Honda Pioneer 1000 Parts Fish - Now Available!!!) and seen the change.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

I think you may be looking too deep. I still say it's a faulty part or assembly issue. There may be one or two failures that come from driver error.

I say that above because just yesterday I moved a 22' pontoon boat into the shop with it. The day before that I towed back a JD lawnmower that quit. I still ride on 30" tires when I'm out on a rec ride. I use a mix of high and low range and my machine has been flawless. Over 600 miles now.


Sent from my iPhone 10s

Can't help it, I get paid to look too deep.

 

[adnoh]

Looks like an update to me. When did they start using this washer?

After the first ones started having problems i looked up the clutch and saw that. I cant exactly remember when i saw it, but a few months back at least

 

[Plumber32]

After the first ones started having problems i looked up the clutch and saw that. I cant exactly remember when i saw it, but a few months back at least

Ok because mine was built the end of march so it might have it if it's an update.

 

[Westtnpioneer]

Isn't the clutch on the opposite end of this washer?

 

[itsleo]

Isn't the clutch on the opposite end of this washer?

Yes they are @Westtnpioneer. That's the trans main shaft with most of the gears and the clutches not sure if it would help with clutch engagement or not.

 

[Plumber101010]

I've always used low range for everything. Don't see high range use for anything but long open road riding.

But surprisingly, the manual says to use high range when climbing hills not low range. That confused me. Greater torque should require low range when climbing a hill??

What concerns me is it seems to be at slow constant speeds, which is EXACTLY what u would be doing when using a plow to level off roads.. Which is why I got the plow.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Well, after further investigation, I have determined that I have it completely backwards. The clutch is "normally closed" using springs to hold the clutch plates engaged. The oil pressure is what allows the clutch plates to become disengaged and the gears to be switched, which is much more logical now that I think about it.

So this is my new hypothesis. There must be a reason why some people, like Joey and Cummins beat theirs to death with no problem while others, have problems just putting them on and off their truck. I think that it is likely an assembly problem. I would hazard a guess that the "die springs" that keep the clutch closed are probably different between the clutch packs. I bet that one set has a higher spring rate than the other since they have different operating masses. I also bet that they have them in Point of Use bins at the assembly station and I bet they have more than one operator assembling them. It is likely that either someone put the wrong springs in the wrong bin or one operator was mistakenly using the wrong spring. This would mean that the oil pump might not be sized to overcome the spring rate of the wrong spring and it allows the clutch pads to still be in contact even after they are supposed to be disengaged, which causes them to wear at an accelerated rate. This would also explain why Honda isn't issuing a recall (it isn't a design problem and it isolated to a narrow slice of transmissions produced by that operator or station or time period) and also why they are just replacing the whole clutch since just replacing the clutch plate wouldn't fix the issue. That would also explain why the number of people complaining has dwindled over time as they have pokayoked that process and it is no longer an issue. Also why they aren't issuing any new part numbers or other obvious design changes.

That is my hypothetical root cause analysis report for the day. Now I have to go and do it for realz on a much less interesting project where people will know if I know what I am talking about or not.

 

[tundraman]

Usually if there is a problem, all the clutches would be bad. Since it is so isolated, it is either an assembly issue or a small batch of defective parts.

 

[amc019]

I keep thinking mine are getting worse then I think they are getting better. I have decided to just run the dog crap out of it until it won't run anymore.

 

[Bayouownbeer]

Well, after further investigation, I have determined that I have it completely backwards. The clutch is "normally closed" using springs to hold the clutch plates engaged. The oil pressure is what allows the clutch plates to become disengaged and the gears to be switched, which is much more logical now that I think about it.

So this is my new hypothesis. There must be a reason why some people, like Joey and Cummins beat theirs to death with no problem while others, have problems just putting them on and off their truck. I think that it is likely an assembly problem. I would hazard a guess that the "die springs" that keep the clutch closed are probably different between the clutch packs. I bet that one set has a higher spring rate than the other since they have different operating masses. I also bet that they have them in Point of Use bins at the assembly station and I bet they have more than one operator assembling them. It is likely that either someone put the wrong springs in the wrong bin or one operator was mistakenly using the wrong spring. This would mean that the oil pump might not be sized to overcome the spring rate of the wrong spring and it allows the clutch pads to still be in contact even after they are supposed to be disengaged, which causes them to wear at an accelerated rate. This would also explain why Honda isn't issuing a recall (it isn't a design problem and it isolated to a narrow slice of transmissions produced by that operator or station or time period) and also why they are just replacing the whole clutch since just replacing the clutch plate wouldn't fix the issue. That would also explain why the number of people complaining has dwindled over time as they have pokayoked that process and it is no longer an issue. Also why they aren't issuing any new part numbers or other obvious design changes.

That is my hypothetical root cause analysis report for the day. Now I have to go and do it for realz on a much less interesting project where people will know if I know what I am talking about or not.

If this is true the. Why have we had several repeat burnt clutches on same machine ?

 

[Crow_Hunter]

If this is true the. Why have we had several repeat burnt clutches on same machine ?

Have we?

I wasn't aware of that. I hope some that have had that condition will chime in.

If so, then my hypothesis can't be correct because I doubt that Honda would have not sent a field service part that had not been verified as good.

The alternative hypothesis is the oil pressurization system isn't adequate across the whole range of speeds/RPM is isn't adequately overcoming the clutch springs and letting them stay in partial contact wearing them down.

I would be interested to see the data related to second failures. Things like riding conditions, Hi vs Lo range, tire size/weight, payload weight, and maybe oil type.

 

[walexa07]

If this is true the. Why have we had several repeat burnt clutches on same machine ?

This is the second time you say there have been several. Post a link to the threads/machines you are talking about. There has only been 1 repeat failure on one machine that I am aware of.

Waylan

 

[JACKAL]

If this is true the. Why have we had several repeat burnt clutches on same machine ?

Machines are like computers, some people have constant computer issues. I often find that the issue is between the keyboard and chair.

People need to stop using non Honda synthetic oil outside the Honda oil specifications. Or stop blaming the manufacturer and look at the person servicing the machine that hypothetically thinks they know better than the engineers and designers.