P700 High elevation power loss

[caverat]

Done some more playing with that silly fan thing. I have the timed laps holding in the 10.5 range but the torque does seam to be up. just thinking that motor can't really rap up any faster. Think I forget the throttle switch maybe use it just on a toggle and turn it on when I get in an area that I need extra. Takes to long for the computer to adjust for it to be of any use on the throttle.

 

[Admin]

 

[DG Rider]

well that was fun & kind of impressive
all runs done with an asphalt take off
Exhaust end removed 3 run average
10.68 = 0.29 seconds faster than stock=31mph

Exhaust end removed & air box lid removed 4 run average
10.45 = 0.52 seconds faster than stock =32 mph

Now I realize that that don't sound like much but in 375 feet that is a very big improvement. Enough so that the 27s are braking lose on take off so there is a small loss in time from that.
Conclusion exhaust replacement to me is worth the money!
fixing the air intake is going to be a lot harder snorkel is not enough unless I could get it to like a 3inch

I had considered doing what I jokingly labeled a "twin take" intake setup. Basically, buying another stock intake tube cutting and plastic welding it so that it sticks over to the driver side, essentially giving twice the intake volume air flow. The problem is Honda's airbox with the ribs cast into it would make it really difficult to seal without looking totally ghetto. Though this would certainly be much easier on the two-seater with all that room under the bed.

 

[caverat]

I actually looked at trying to do that but couldn't figure out how to do it without looking like a train wreck.
so what I did end up doing was building a snorkel with the twister in line.
Just got back off the mountain and the mud bog. It actually made a big improvement I did power out but at 8200 feet and 20" of wet crusted snow. I think I can mostly live with that I'll do an exhaust job on it and live with it. Did amazing in the mud bogs at 5800 feet 2ed gear ripping it up no complaints at all most of the trucks were struggling a lot more than I was.
As far as the electric supper charger adding power NO way. But does it work to help over come the elevation problem I would give it a B-

 

[caverat]

This was the end result just like that $20 at the car wash

 

[HBarlow]

Thank you for your input. I bought one of those silly forced air fan kits off ebay for like $180. The clamed to have dyno proof of a 20 hp gain. It is supposedly satisfaction guarantee. I think the 700 has enough power if I can just make it breath.
Do you have any knowledge or experience with this type of system?

No. My advanced age and bald head tells me it's bs. Just one more gimmick to separate people from their hard-earned money. A fan would not be able to create the pressure required to make a noticeable di difference.

Save your money.

 

[caverat]

No. My advanced age and bald head tells me it's bs. Just one more gimmick to separate people from their hard-earned money. A fan would not be able to create the pressure required to make a noticeable di difference.

Save your money.

It actually helped with my problem of thin air at elevation dose it add HP no not at all but it dose help with the poor things altitude sickness LOL

 

[trigger]

Actually, best power is usually achieved at somewhere around 12.* to 1 AFR, but that varies from design to design. 14.7 (referred to as stoichiometric AFR) is usually best for emissions and fuel economy. But you're right...more fuel is not the answer.

Have a Dobeck AFR+ on my 500, they have it preset for you but it's adjustable. Have played with it before, nothing extreme as I really didn't know what I was doing and didn't want to screw anything up. Spoke to one of their guys on the phone today, just trying to squeak any more midrange power I can out of this little engine. I have a much better understanding of it now. One thing that stuck out during our conversation was the 14.7 number and I remembered you posting this. Good sh** DG!

 

[HBarlow]

Found these on the web:

The ideal (theoretical) air-fuel ratio, for a complete combustion, is called stoichiometric air-fuel ratio. For a gasoline (petrol) engine, the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio is around 14.7:1. This means that, in order to burn completely 1 kg of fuel, we need 14.7 kg of air.

Air-fuel ratio, lambda and engine performance – x-engineer.org​

Spark ignition (SI) engines usually run on gasoline (petrol) fuel. The AFR of the SI engines varies within the range 12:1 (rich) to 20:1 (lean), depending on the operating condition of the engine (temperature, speed, load, etc.).

Air-fuel ratio, lambda and engine performance – x-engineer.org​

 

[DG Rider]

New dog, old tricks.

A day confirming what I already knew...

Ever since I got this new machine I've been wondering if I was maybe wrong. It does seem like it's a little stronger down low than my old 2014, but then again I'm riding at much lower altitude. But...nope.

Yesterday, I rode up around 4,800 to 5,000 ft north of superior. I've been up here before with the 700, but yesterday, for whatever reason I ran into more tough situations. Last time I was on stock tires, but now with 26" tires, which didn't help. Two separate times the machine powered out under similar circumstances that involved climbing what was pretty much a vertical rock face of several inches. The 3rd was an undercut rut type situation that might have stopped anything or broken an axle.

One was up a moderately steep climb. The climb itself was handled fairly easy, but there was this one rock sticking out of the ground that I had to put an tire on and gingerly go over to prevent bottoming out severely. As the rear tire butted up against the rock, I sat there full throttle, the machine not moving. The other was a big boulder type obstacle that was optional but I decided to climb across it. Same results.
I decided to do some testing in both of these situations. I removed the airbox lid to let the machine breathe and let it run for minute or two, and in both situations and machine powered right up and cross the obstacle. The other takeaway is that literally backing up a couple of inches and getting just a touch of momentum carried the machine, airbox lid in place, across the obstacles. So as has always been the case with the 700, momentum is a big deal...More so than in most machines.

Keep in mind that this was at 4-5k feet, NOT 8-10k feet that you might encounter In Colorado, and was with one person. I don't know what you could do with 4 heavy people at those elevations in difficult terrain. It obviously responds to intake and exhaust mods very well, but would it be enough? Personally, I don't think so.

Some takeaways are that my decision to go with 26" (as opposed to bigger) was the right one for me. I will never go bigger on a 700 as it currently exists. The other is that I just can't recommend this machine to people like the OP who ride at real high elevations.

Fortunately, I rarely do that anymore. In Recent times I've started winning the squeak and rattle war, with room for even more sound deadener to maybe quail that obnoxiously noisy rear end. All In all, the 700 has become a pretty pleasant place to spend the day.

A 1000 will cure these issues...if I can keep it from overheating on those trips up the mountain, but you know what I'd like even more? A 700 with a low range. Days like yesterday show me what a crying shame it is that Honda won't do this machine Justice. You spend half the day wondering why it was hamstring by gearing, and the other sitting there thinking about how good it can be at times. I love the way it feels under power. I love the size. I love the looks. And I love it's (relative) simplicity compared to the 1000.

Honda: Get your head out of your ass and give this machine a f***ing low range!

 

[caverat]

New dog, old tricks.

A day confirming what I already knew...

Ever since I got this new machine I've been wondering if I was maybe wrong. It does seem like it's a little stronger down low than my old 2014, but then again I'm riding at much lower altitude. But...nope.

Yesterday, I rode up around 4,800 to 5,000 ft north of superior. I've been up here before with the 700, but yesterday, for whatever reason I ran into more tough situations. Last time I was on stock tires, but now with 26" tires, which didn't help. Two separate times the machine powered out under similar circumstances that involved climbing what was pretty much a vertical rock face of several inches. The 3rd was an undercut rut type situation that might have stopped anything or broken an axle.

One was up a moderately steep climb. The climb itself was handled fairly easy, but there was this one rock sticking out of the ground that I had to put an tire on and gingerly go over to prevent bottoming out severely. As the rear tire butted up against the rock, I sat there full throttle, the machine not moving. The other was a big boulder type obstacle that was optional but I decided to climb across it. Same results.
I decided to do some testing in both of these situations. I removed the airbox lid to let the machine breathe and let it run for minute or two, and in both situations and machine powered right up and cross the obstacle. The other takeaway is that literally backing up a couple of inches and getting just a touch of momentum carried the machine, airbox lid in place, across the obstacles. So as has always been the case with the 700, momentum is a big deal...More so than in most machines.

Keep in mind that this was at 4-5k feet, NOT 8-10k feet that you might encounter In Colorado, and was with one person. I don't know what you could do with 4 heavy people at those elevations in difficult terrain. It obviously responds to intake and exhaust mods very well, but would it be enough? Personally, I don't think so.

Some takeaways are that my decision to go with 26" (as opposed to bigger) was the right one for me. I will never go bigger on a 700 as it currently exists. The other is that I just can't recommend this machine to people like the OP who ride at real high elevations.

Fortunately, I rarely do that anymore. In Recent times I've started winning the squeak and rattle war, with room for even more sound deadener to maybe quail that obnoxiously noisy rear end. All In all, the 700 has become a pretty pleasant place to spend the day.

A 1000 will cure these issues...if I can keep it from overheating on those trips up the mountain, but you know what I'd like even more? A 700 with a low range. Days like yesterday show me what a crying shame it is that Honda won't do this machine Justice. You spend half the day wondering why it was hamstring by gearing, and the other sitting there thinking about how good it can be at times. I love the way it feels under power. I love the size. I love the looks. And I love it's (relative) simplicity compared to the 1000.

Honda: Get your head out of your ass and give this machine a f***ing low range!

You nailed it on the head the 1k is just not a great fit for my situation. The ONLY thing needed to make the 700 perfect for mountain terrain is low range that would solve most all the problems. I run my 4 wheeler in low range 50% of the time. I had no idea the 700 didn't have low range until after it was a done deal. stupidest thing I ever heard of!!!!!!

 

[03mossy]

I am heading to CO elk hunting this fall and really want to bring my 700-4 with but these posts have me real hesitant. Long ass drive to haul something that wont get the job done.

 

[caverat]

I am heading to CO elk hunting this fall and really want to bring my 700-4 with but these posts have me real hesitant. Long ass drive to haul something that wont get the job done.

As long as your riding on so so roads and trails it will be fine. If your not get trying to crawl through bolder field long steep climbs or pushing through drifted snow you will get along just fine.
It is only a problem when you are trying to really use the bottom end of the RPM range

 

[03mossy]

Ok thanks! I absolutely love this machine and around here at 800 ft it has done everything I’ve asked of it.

 

[DG Rider]

I am heading to CO elk hunting this fall and really want to bring my 700-4 with but these posts have me real hesitant. Long ass drive to haul something that wont get the job done.

Like @caverat said, the average trail it'd be fine

 

[Dupoky]

I ride in idaho around 6500 to 9000 haven't had any issues so far. You definitely won't be doing 50 anywhere. When I really need to climb I ride a 4-wheeler anyway

 

[DG Rider]

So a further update to the rock I previously mentioned above.
Today I did some testing on the same Rock again. This time I tested with the air box lid removed, with the stock spark removed, and with both together, along with stock.

Of these two cheap modifications, removing the airbox lid clearly did the most good, though the spark arrestor certainly seem to help a tiny bit. With both removed, the machine actually started spining all four tires against the rock face...Something a stock, buttoned up machine wouldn't even come close to doing. The spark arrestor by itself did seem to help a bit, but not nearly to the degree of removing the airbox lid, so if you must do one or the other, I would recommend a high flow filter before an exhaust tip.

For you guys not normally riding up in elevations on the one-time trip, you could maybe purchase the stock lid, trim it out and maybe put some frog skin type material across it. Obviously mud or water riding is on the question of this, but those high elevation Colorado passes would be fine. Just be aware of the filter will get dirty very quickly.
Another note: even with the spark arrestor removed, the intake honk is much louder than the exhaust.

 

[DG Rider]

Isn't it interesting that we can put a man on the moon...decades ago, clone a living organism, and cross monkeys with humans. Yet the speech to text on my phone is absolutely a f****** joke, struggling on the simplest of words. I don't have an accent...