P700 High elevation power loss

[Russ989]

Overall, I really liked my 700-4. If it would have had a 5 speed like my P500 it would have been a much better machine. There are several things they could do to help the 700 out but I feel like they don’t because they are hoodwinking us into buying the cheaper 4 seat only to upgrade to the higher priced 3 or 5 seat 1000.

 

[DG Rider]

Or this...

Honda Pioneer 700 Custom Turbo!

this and 5 other boxes came in today. I think I will be busy the Christmas vacation. hope to have it all worked out buy the first of the year. I have been working out the details for a couple of months we will see how I did.

hondasxs.com

 

[caverat]

Or this...

Honda Pioneer 700 Custom Turbo!

this and 5 other boxes came in today. I think I will be busy the Christmas vacation. hope to have it all worked out buy the first of the year. I have been working out the details for a couple of months we will see how I did.

hondasxs.com

This was one of the first posts I saw when I joined this page

 

[DG Rider]

This is the 1st time I remember this being discussed...

Honda Pioneer (and Big Red) power and torque

Does somebody know the Pioneer's power and torque? Does somobody know why Honda keeps secret those specs? Other makers state them. I think it's important to know power and torque for a vehicle, and moreover for a work machine when one need it to ride on steep muddy trails.

hondasxs.com

Notice that I was wondering what was up with Manly Bugs machine. This was before I had mine...

 

[caverat]

This is the 1st time I remember this being discussed...

Honda Pioneer (and Big Red) power and torque

Does somebody know the Pioneer's power and torque? Does somobody know why Honda keeps secret those specs? Other makers state them. I think it's important to know power and torque for a vehicle, and moreover for a work machine when one need it to ride on steep muddy trails.

hondasxs.com

Notice that I was wondering what was up with Manly Bugs machine. This was before I had mine...

I was just discussing with my wife about our ride yester day. something that I had forgotten was the strong smell of gas when it power out. Reading the last post you pinned jogged my memory. It mentioned it running lean! I mine seams to be running a little rich. as silly as it sounds that fan forced air intake could make a big improvement especially at low speed in the deep snow?
I think I'm going to give it a try. It's only like $100 to $150 mod done nicely and surly can't hurt anything

 

[caverat]

Screw it I just ordered one on ebay they clamed to have dyno proof that it adds 20 hp??? has a money back guarantee if it don't work LOL
I just really bad don't want the freaking 1000 besides it is way more fun to Frankenstein stuff that way your not another brick in the wall

 

[DG Rider]

I was just discussing with my wife about our ride yester day. something that I had forgotten was the strong smell of gas when it power out. Reading the last post you pinned jogged my memory. It mentioned it running lean! I mine seams to be running a little rich. as silly as it sounds that fan forced air intake could make a big improvement especially at low speed in the deep snow?
I think I'm going to give it a try. It's only like $100 to $150 mod done nicely and surly can't hurt anything

Out of curiosity, did the machine stay running the whole time?
It has been suggested that the efi only reads barometric pressure at key-on events, meaning if you drive all the way from 3000 to 8000 without stopping, it might not have adjusted. This doesn't make sense to me, as the MAP (Manifold ABSOLUTE pressure) is a pretty important input that is constantly used...not to mention the O2 also helping lean or rich...but heck, it's worth a try.

You can also pop the airbox lid when it's safe to do so...it'll help. It'll sound like satan belching, though your cab will probably keep it out.
Also, run the thinnest oil in the range. It's an old drag racing trick to use thinner/thicker ATF to fine tune stall speed with a torque converter, and I think if you could get an extra few hundred rpm at stall, I'd help a lot. I don't know if it actually does anything for the pioneer, but it can't hurt.
There is also a thread with a guy working with a power vision 3, and I've always been curious what an extra degree or 3 of timing might do at high elevations.

 

[caverat]

Out of curiosity, did the machine stay running the whole time?
It has been suggested that the efi only reads barometric pressure at key-on events, meaning if you drive all the way from 3000 to 8000 without stopping, it might not have adjusted. This doesn't make sense to me, as the MAP (Manifold ABSOLUTE pressure) is a pretty important input that is constantly used...not to mention the O2 also helping lean or rich...but heck, it's worth a try.

You can also pop the airbox lid when it's safe to do so...it'll help. It'll sound like satan belching, though your cab will probably keep it out.
Also, run the thinnest oil in the range. It's an old drag racing trick to use thinner/thicker ATF to fine tune stall speed with a torque converter, and I think if you could get an extra few hundred rpm at stall, I'd help a lot. I don't know if it actually does anything for the pioneer, but it can't hurt.
There is also a thread with a guy working with a power vision 3, and I've always been curious what an extra degree or 3 of timing might do at high elevations.

Interesting it was running the whole time from the house all the way up and back.
I'll take it in and have the valves adjusted as well I have not had it done yet.

 

[caverat]

I've been fallowing the power vision 3 thread just kinda waiting to see how he ends up. Don't know of any shop close to me that can really do much to help me out might have to take a trip to SLC if he gets it all figured out LOL
I'm an old school kinda mechanic the computers and sensors are above my pay grade. In my day we threw all the crap away and plugged the holes. I'm not even that freaking old but have always believed the automobile died after the 60's before I was born LOL

 

[DG Rider]

Interesting it was running the whole time from the house all the way up and back.
I'll take it in and have the valves adjusted as well I have not had it done yet.

I should note that mine ran perfectly and smelled normal at those elevations...it just didn't have enough juice. And the key cycle did nothing for me...though some have claimed this helped.

 

[HBarlow]

You cannot overcome the laws of physics. The air is thinner at higher elevations. Normally aspirated internal combustion engines lose a percentage of power with each 1000' of elevation gain. You can't overcome that fact by increasing fueling. That would only cause the engine to run rich.

A gas engine can only run at approximately 14.7% fuel to air mixture. More fuel makes it too rich. Less fuel makes it too lean.

The only solution is to increase air. That is what turbochargers and superchargers do. They force more air into the combustion chambers with each intake stroke. With more air the engine can then benefit from added fueling.

Turbocharged or supercharged engines produce just as much power at higher elevations as they do at sea level. Ordinary gas or diesel engines without a turbo or blower lose power above sea level.

 

[DG Rider]

You cannot overcome the laws of physics. The air is thinner at higher elevations. Normally aspirated internal combustion engines lose a percentage of power with each 1000' of elevation gain. You can't overcome that fact by increasing fueling. That would only cause the engine to run rich.

A gas engine can only run at approximately 14.7% fuel to air mixture. More fuel makes it too rich. Less fuel makes it too lean.

The only solution is to increase air. That is what turbochargers and superchargers do. They force more air into the combustion chambers with each intake stroke. With more air the engine can then benefit from added fueling.

Turbocharged or supercharged engines produce just as much power at higher elevations as they do at sea level. Ordinary gas or diesel engines without a turbo or blower lose power above sea level.

Actually, best power is usually achieved at somewhere around 12.* to 1 AFR, but that varies from design to design. 14.7 (referred to as stoichiometric AFR) is usually best for emissions and fuel economy. But you're right...more fuel is not the answer.

 

[Gold-digger]

Just ran out to my friends house. Who has the 1000 limited addition Comes with almost every add on I want for less $$$ than I can by and install them for. Seams like kind of a no brainer now I know.
Was able to find a used 1000-3 limited edition 2021 300 miles away with 350 miles on it hard top, hard front and rear window for $18,500 sounds like a good deal to me?
What kind of trade in price should I expect to be fair for my 2021 700-2 deluxe 650 miles with 8k worth of add on's?

'

12 to 14 k

 

[caverat]

You cannot overcome the laws of physics. The air is thinner at higher elevations. Normally aspirated internal combustion engines lose a percentage of power with each 1000' of elevation gain. You can't overcome that fact by increasing fueling. That would only cause the engine to run rich.

A gas engine can only run at approximately 14.7% fuel to air mixture. More fuel makes it too rich. Less fuel makes it too lean.

The only solution is to increase air. That is what turbochargers and superchargers do. They force more air into the combustion chambers with each intake stroke. With more air the engine can then benefit from added fueling.

Turbocharged or supercharged engines produce just as much power at higher elevations as they do at sea level. Ordinary gas or diesel engines without a turbo or blower lose power above sea level.

Thank you for your input. I bought one of those silly forced air fan kits off ebay for like $180. The clamed to have dyno proof of a 20 hp gain. It is supposedly satisfaction guarantee. I think the 700 has enough power if I can just make it breath.
Do you have any knowledge or experience with this type of system?

 

[caverat]

So review for the twister electric supercharger. Installed on a 2021 700 deluxe
Bought off eBay for $188.98
Installation was fairly easy did not to full electrical install only to the point to make it work
Did 3 runs at 40 deg F track length 375 feet
5,000 feet elevation
Stock before adding unit in. Average of 3 runs with an asphalt take off
10.97 seconds 30 MPH
After installing the Twister electric supercharger. Average 3 runs with asphalt take off
11.2 seconds 29.5 MPH
Dirt spin out test
stock 21 feet
"Supercharged" 19 feet
I tried this thing in every posable way I could think of it simply does not work it just makes alot of noise!!!!!!!
I tried running it on full time. I tried running it from 3/4 throttle It actually worked slightly better leaving it running than just high throttle. I even tried having it running when I started the machine.
It is a total mental thing thinking this idea works! I thought it felt more powerful but the stop watch and tape don't lie
This idea of blowing air into the air intake is total bunk and dose absolutely nothing at all in fact I would say it hinders you just slightly.
Good thing it came with a money back guarantee!!!
Looks like it's time to just buy portals

 

[DG Rider]

So review for the twister electric supercharger. Installed on a 2021 700 deluxe
Bought off eBay for $188.98
Installation was fairly easy did not to full electrical install only to the point to make it work
Did 3 runs at 40 deg F track length 375 feet
5,000 feet elevation
Stock before adding unit in. Average of 3 runs with an asphalt take off
10.97 seconds 30 MPH
After installing the Twister electric supercharger. Average 3 runs with asphalt take off
11.2 seconds 29.5 MPH
Dirt spin out test
stock 21 feet
"Supercharged" 19 feet
I tried this thing in every posable way I could think of it simply does not work it just makes alot of noise!!!!!!!
I tried running it on full time. I tried running it from 3/4 throttle It actually worked slightly better leaving it running than just high throttle. I even tried having it running when I started the machine.
It is a total mental thing thinking this idea works! I thought it felt more powerful but the stop watch and tape don't lie
This idea of blowing air into the air intake is total bunk and dose absolutely nothing at all in fact I would say it hinders you just slightly.
Good thing it came with a money back guarantee!!!
Looks like it's time to just buy portals

If it did anything anywhere, I think it would be the situations where it "powers out" at relatively low rpm, and ultimately, I've always suspected the "supercharged pioneer" really did no more than really opening up the air box would have. At higher rpm, the engine is probably sucking more air than that little fan moves anyway, hence the slow down.

How do you feel about exhausts? Someone posted a slip on on FB that claimed at 10% power increase. It was supposedly a "quiet" pipe, meaning it's only a little louder than stock.

I know nothing about portals, really. Except they look like they'd put a lot of stress on front end components.

 

[DG Rider]

@caverat while you're in a testing mood, try this:

Pull the spark arrestor (wouldn't hurt to check it for clogging anyway). Don't drive in dry areas without it, as you can start a fire (in theory). Now pull the airbox lid (again, avoid mud/water and deep snow without it). Drive around for a bit to allow the EFI to adjust. Now do the drag testing and report results...

 

[caverat]

If it did anything anywhere, I think it would be the situations where it "powers out" at relatively low rpm, and ultimately, I've always suspected the "supercharged pioneer" really did no more than really opening up the air box would have. At higher rpm, the engine is probably sucking more air than that little fan moves anyway, hence the slow down.

How do you feel about exhausts? Someone posted a slip on on FB that claimed at 10% power increase. It was supposedly a "quiet" pipe, meaning it's only a little louder than stock.

I know nothing about portals, really. Except they look like they'd put a lot of stress on front end components.

It did kind of a odd thing in that the motor was lagging a little from 23 to 25 MPH for some reason it was kind of odd. and did not do it any were else through the run. And only done it with the fan running. I like your idea of opening the exhaust and air box and make some more runs.
I'm low on gas now to so will try adding some octane booster on the last couple of runs see what falls out of the tree

 

[caverat]

It will cost about 5k to do portals by the time I get everything done still thinking that's stupid expensive.
If I did not need the ground clearance so bad putting the 25s back on would be the best fix. But we really don't have atv trails most are old mining & jeep roads and very washed out with big rocks threw old glacier fields. Then deep snow really no such thing as mudding hear

 

[caverat]

well that was fun & kind of impressive
all runs done with an asphalt take off
Exhaust end removed 3 run average
10.68 = 0.29 seconds faster than stock=31mph

Exhaust end removed & air box lid removed 4 run average
10.45 = 0.52 seconds faster than stock =32 mph

Now I realize that that don't sound like much but in 375 feet that is a very big improvement. Enough so that the 27s are braking lose on take off so there is a small loss in time from that.
Conclusion exhaust replacement to me is worth the money!
fixing the air intake is going to be a lot harder snorkel is not enough unless I could get it to like a 3inch