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joeymt33

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There has been a lot of talk about oil lately and some preferences about brands, weight, etc. I had looked deeply into oil research a few years back and book marked my searches. Copied and pasted here is some great info that is a must read. Pay attention to the part where you find out that Mobile 1 IS NOT A TRUE SYNTHETIC!

What does the SAE Viscosity rating on your Motoroil bottle mean?

Most of the time when viscosity is explained words are used that are too technical for the average person to quickly grasp. This leaves them still wondering what the viscosity numbers really mean on a bottle of motor oil. Simply put, viscosity is the oil's resistance to flow or, for the layman, an oil's speed of flow as measured through a device known as a viscometer. The thicker (higher viscosity) of an oil, the slower it will flow. You will see oil viscosity measurement in lube articles stated in kinematic (kv) and absolute (cSt) terms. These are translated into the easier to understand SAE viscosity numbers you see on an oil bottle.

OK . . .What does a 5W-30 do that an SAE 30 won't?

When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210° F or 100° C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210° (100° C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210° F (100° C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

Obviously, cold temperature or W ratings are tested differently than regular SAE viscosity ratings. Simply put, these tests are done with a different temperature system. There is a scale for the W, or winter viscosity grades and, depending on which grade is selected, testing is done at different temperatures.

Basically to determine non-winter grade viscosity using a viscometer a measured amount of oil at 100° C is allowed to flow through an orifice and timed. Using a table they determine SAE viscosity based on different ranges. Thicker or heavy viscosity oils will take longer to flow through the orifice in the viscometer and end up in higher number ranges such as SAE 50 or SAE 60 for example. If an oil flows through faster being thinner/lighter then it will wind up in a low number range such as SAE 10 or SAE 20 for example. Occasionally it is possible for an oil to barely fall into one viscosity range. For example, an oil is barely an SAE 30 having a time that puts it on the very low side. Then another oil is timed to be an SAE 20 on the high side not quite breaking into the SAE 30 numbers. Technically speaking these oils will be close to the same viscosity even though one is an SAE 20 and the other an SAE 30. But you have to draw the line somewhere and that's how the SAE system is designed. Another system takes more accurate numbers into account known as cSt abbreviated for centistokes. You'll see these numbers used often for industrial lubricants such as compressor or hydraulic oils. The table at the right, SAE Viscosity Chart (High Temp), shows the equivalents for cSt and SAE viscosity numbers. You'll see the ranges for cSt compared to SAE numbers. An oil that is 9.2 cSt will be nearly the same viscosity as an oil that is 9.3 cSt, yet one is an SAE 20 and the other is an SAE 30. This is why the cSt centistokes numbers more accurately show oil viscosity.
Now if you look at the table labeled Winter or "W" Grades, you can get valuable information on how the W or winter grade viscosities are measured. Basically, as shown by the chart, when the oil is reduced to a colder temperature it is measured for performance factors. If it performs like a SAE 0 motor oil at the colder temperature, then it will receive the SAE 0W viscosity grade. Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 20 motor oil at the reduced temperatures (the scale varies - see the chart), then it will be a SAE 20W motor oil.
If a motor oil passes the cold temperature or W (winter grade) specification for a SAE 15W and at 210° F (100° C) flows through the viscometer like a SAE 40 motor oil, then the label will read 15W-40. Getting the picture? Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil on the reduced temperature scale and flows like a SAE 20 at 210° F (100° C), then this motor oil's label will read 5W-20. And so forth and so on!

I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone, usually an auto mechanic, say that they wouldn't use a 5W-30 motor oil because it is, "Too thin." Then they may use a 10W-30 or SAE 30 motor oil. At engine operating temperatures these oils are the same. The only time the 5W-30 oil is "thin" is at cold start up conditions where you need it to be "thin."

What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?
Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and generally don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.
Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc. It's the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics that make the best motor oils. They are compatible with petroleum based oils and fuels plus they have better seal swell than petroleum. Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Index additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.
How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including regular Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain OE and XL synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only a few Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "OE" and "XL" product name.
So as you can see, the average performance of motor oils can be affected by how they change during their service life. Multi grade petroleum can lose viscosity and thin causing accelerated wear as the VI additives shear back. Straight weight petroleum (i.e. SAE 30, SAE 40) thicken a lot as they cool meaning longer time before lubricant reaches critical parts on cold starts, but have no VI additives so they resists thinning. However, they can degrade and thicken as heat and by products of combustion affect the unsaturated chemistry. Group III (3) synthetics resists this degradation much better, but being petroleum based employ some VI additives which is a negative and typically don't have as good performance in the volatility viscosity retention areas. Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no VI additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life.

For more to read and to see the tables, visit this site:
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
 
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JACKAL

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Thank you @joeymt33! Great info. So all that being said, what do you run in your pioneer? And your truck too?

X2 Good Info.
 
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joeymt33

joeymt33

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I use the standard Honda oil and change it as required.

For my truck I use motorcraft and change it at 5k. The book says 7.5k. Also, I travel a lot and don't work around home. About 50,000 miles per year.
 
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joeymt33

joeymt33

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I've always ran standard Ford Motorcraft in my vehicles and changed it at 3k for around town vehicles and 5k for my work/travel truck. My last truck went 270k with out a single engine issue. I'm sure someone is driving it today and it's reliable for them. 270k miles and never even removed the valve cover. Also, changed tranny oil (pan drop and re-fill) at every 30k and never had a tranny problem.

I'm sure Amsoil, Royal, Redline, etc is a better oil, I really do believe that but I'm also sure that those high end oils aren't any better if you change it as frequent and ALWAYS on time as I do. I feel better about servicing my vehicle my self and checking out everything else other than oil at this 3k and 5k oil change intervals while I've got it in my shop.

For those that go extended service periods or use bypass filters, Amsoil is probably the only way to go.

Joe
 
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Mudder

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@joeymt33 , with Mobil 1 synthetic in a P500, any guess on a mileage change frequency? More than the 600 mile wrench icon? Southern riding weather, lower rpm style riding. Thanks
 
joeymt33

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@joeymt33 , with Mobil 1 synthetic in a P500, any guess on a mileage change frequency? More than the 600 mile wrench icon? Southern riding weather, lower rpm style riding. Thanks

My guess would be the oil is still fine beyond the OEM recommended interval. You could always take a sample and send it to Blackstone labs. They would tell you exactly the condition of the oil and probably gave you the information you need to set your new interval
 
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Mudder

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Put about 1000 miles a year and was thinking about an annual oil change.
 
dnjones161

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Put about 1000 miles a year and was thinking about an annual oil change.
I was just thinking about the same thing.

1200 seems like a long time for a bike. Not long for a car. My 600 mile light is about to go off and I'm tempted to do it then. I'd be curious to know how long everyone else waits it out too. I couldn't seem to find a thread on that specific topic in the search bar (doesn't mean there isn't one lol)
 
Neohio

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I was just thinking about the same thing.

1200 seems like a long time for a bike. Not long for a car. My 600 mile light is about to go off and I'm tempted to do it then. I'd be curious to know how long everyone else waits it out too. I couldn't seem to find a thread on that specific topic in the search bar (doesn't mean there isn't one lol)
I go the full 1200 miles between changes using Honda oil and filters.
 
dnjones161

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Also should note @joeymt33 this is one of the best written, most thorough pieces I've ever seen on oil viscosity. Thank you and bravo sir. This page has been marked for reference and will be shared many times.
 
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jwfirebird

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Put about 1000 miles a year and was thinking about an annual oil change.
wouldn't push it that far, personally wouldn't buy mobil 1 known people with engine problems before 100k.
I drove my cars about 30-50k a year and 30 for the wife for the last 20 years all I ever buy is normal Valvoline changed at 5k they all get the same or better milage as new at 300k I keep my cars too. no internal failures. all the old mechanics you ask too say pick a major brand and stick with it probably be fine.
Honda is good to the change interval I imagine, though if I was going to push it I would try synthetic, I started buying napa synthetic for my cars, its vavloline but you can normally get 5q jug for less than 20. I work on quads for people too use Valvoline atv Ive personally put a ton of miles on that myself too 5 bucks a qt for that
 
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Mudder

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So swithing from Mobile 1 synthetic to another synthetic should be OK. See a lot of comments here on several brands as well. Time to shop as wanting to do change, up to 700 miles now.
 
jwfirebird

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you also have to make sure its ok for wet clutch on the 1k and 500, not sure if the auto motive oils are, but the Valvoline atv says it on the back. personally I would just buy that or Honda and change It at the interval. ive changed two quads twice a year forever. the mud I get into you have to
 
joeymt33

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Also should note @joeymt33 this is one of the best written, most thorough pieces I've ever seen on oil viscosity. Thank you and bravo sir. This page has been marked for reference and will be shared many times.

Thank you sir

It’s old and probably needs to be updated. Most of it was copied and pasted for easier reading instead of everyone chasing links.
 
William

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I have always changed oil in my atvs, and sxs once a year with conventional oil. It always looks new when drained. I don’t put many miles on them though... I will send in a sample next time and post the findings. I mostly want to know how much water is in the oil from condensation and fuel from short runs... I forgot to change it in my p500 one time and went a full two years... probably 400 or 500 hard miles and it still looked brand new. And that was hard mud riding and a lot of wide open driving!
 
trigger

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I was taught that it's the filter that needs changing more than the oil. I run synthetic and change the oil once a year regardless of the miles.
 
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I

Ice

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There has been a lot of talk about oil lately and some preferences about brands, weight, etc. I had looked deeply into oil research a few years back and book marked my searches. Copied and pasted here is some great info that is a must read. Pay attention to the part where you find out that Mobile 1 IS NOT A TRUE SYNTHETIC!

What does the SAE Viscosity rating on your Motoroil bottle mean?

Most of the time when viscosity is explained words are used that are too technical for the average person to quickly grasp. This leaves them still wondering what the viscosity numbers really mean on a bottle of motor oil. Simply put, viscosity is the oil's resistance to flow or, for the layman, an oil's speed of flow as measured through a device known as a viscometer. The thicker (higher viscosity) of an oil, the slower it will flow. You will see oil viscosity measurement in lube articles stated in kinematic (kv) and absolute (cSt) terms. These are translated into the easier to understand SAE viscosity numbers you see on an oil bottle.

OK . . .What does a 5W-30 do that an SAE 30 won't?

When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210° F or 100° C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210° (100° C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210° F (100° C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

Obviously, cold temperature or W ratings are tested differently than regular SAE viscosity ratings. Simply put, these tests are done with a different temperature system. There is a scale for the W, or winter viscosity grades and, depending on which grade is selected, testing is done at different temperatures.

Basically to determine non-winter grade viscosity using a viscometer a measured amount of oil at 100° C is allowed to flow through an orifice and timed. Using a table they determine SAE viscosity based on different ranges. Thicker or heavy viscosity oils will take longer to flow through the orifice in the viscometer and end up in higher number ranges such as SAE 50 or SAE 60 for example. If an oil flows through faster being thinner/lighter then it will wind up in a low number range such as SAE 10 or SAE 20 for example. Occasionally it is possible for an oil to barely fall into one viscosity range. For example, an oil is barely an SAE 30 having a time that puts it on the very low side. Then another oil is timed to be an SAE 20 on the high side not quite breaking into the SAE 30 numbers. Technically speaking these oils will be close to the same viscosity even though one is an SAE 20 and the other an SAE 30. But you have to draw the line somewhere and that's how the SAE system is designed. Another system takes more accurate numbers into account known as cSt abbreviated for centistokes. You'll see these numbers used often for industrial lubricants such as compressor or hydraulic oils. The table at the right, SAE Viscosity Chart (High Temp), shows the equivalents for cSt and SAE viscosity numbers. You'll see the ranges for cSt compared to SAE numbers. An oil that is 9.2 cSt will be nearly the same viscosity as an oil that is 9.3 cSt, yet one is an SAE 20 and the other is an SAE 30. This is why the cSt centistokes numbers more accurately show oil viscosity.
Now if you look at the table labeled Winter or "W" Grades, you can get valuable information on how the W or winter grade viscosities are measured. Basically, as shown by the chart, when the oil is reduced to a colder temperature it is measured for performance factors. If it performs like a SAE 0 motor oil at the colder temperature, then it will receive the SAE 0W viscosity grade. Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 20 motor oil at the reduced temperatures (the scale varies - see the chart), then it will be a SAE 20W motor oil.
If a motor oil passes the cold temperature or W (winter grade) specification for a SAE 15W and at 210° F (100° C) flows through the viscometer like a SAE 40 motor oil, then the label will read 15W-40. Getting the picture? Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil on the reduced temperature scale and flows like a SAE 20 at 210° F (100° C), then this motor oil's label will read 5W-20. And so forth and so on!

I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone, usually an auto mechanic, say that they wouldn't use a 5W-30 motor oil because it is, "Too thin." Then they may use a 10W-30 or SAE 30 motor oil. At engine operating temperatures these oils are the same. The only time the 5W-30 oil is "thin" is at cold start up conditions where you need it to be "thin."

What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?
Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and generally don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.
Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc. It's the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics that make the best motor oils. They are compatible with petroleum based oils and fuels plus they have better seal swell than petroleum. Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Index additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.
How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including regular Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain OE and XL synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only a few Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "OE" and "XL" product name.
So as you can see, the average performance of motor oils can be affected by how they change during their service life. Multi grade petroleum can lose viscosity and thin causing accelerated wear as the VI additives shear back. Straight weight petroleum (i.e. SAE 30, SAE 40) thicken a lot as they cool meaning longer time before lubricant reaches critical parts on cold starts, but have no VI additives so they resists thinning. However, they can degrade and thicken as heat and by products of combustion affect the unsaturated chemistry. Group III (3) synthetics resists this degradation much better, but being petroleum based employ some VI additives which is a negative and typically don't have as good performance in the volatility viscosity retention areas. Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no VI additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life.

For more to read and to see the tables, visit this site:
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
So if a engine says 10w40 is recommended why don't we use 0w40 in everything that calls for 10w40 and so on like 0w20 or 0w30 0w50 and so on? if the lower number is for cold viscosity why wouldn't 0w on the cold side work for everything?
 
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