PaulF
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Lifetime Member
I cannot fathom going 60 over whoops in my R, even with the ST springs. Over about 40, the bucking is so bad it becomes "scary".
UGH, sounds like it is time for me to trade in the 2 seater.
UGH, sounds like it is time for me to trade in the 2 seater.
lee
Village Idiot
Lifetime Member
Club Contributor
His "formula" is the wrong one for the R suspension.
It is correct for the X.
For the R use the anti-squat calc shown here:
4-Link Suspension Guide | Anti -Squat, Anti-Dirve, and Roll Center Explained
Crawlpedia is an off-road encyclopedia featuring a complete guide to 4-link and 3-link suspension characteristics.
www.crawlpedia.com
This is a simplified approximation that neglects a few factors, but it is an easy place to start without several advanced degrees.
The lower link is the lower blue line, the upper blue line follows the front half of the upper A-arm (not the pivot axis for reasons I am not getting in to here).
Still bucks but not for the reasons in the video.
Edit: to clarify, this is the method to find the instant center. This is not a comment on how to modify the suspension for rock crawling.
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PaulF
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Lifetime Member
Lee,
Thank you for posting that info, much more useful that the ST video. It makes sense why the R bucks and the X does not (or at least not as bad). According to that link, what is good for rock crawling is not necessarily good for high speed desert. How disappointing that they built the R for more aggressive driving and it seems to have backfired.
So, the R has the worse bucking issue but he explains in the video what is wrong with the type of suspension used on the X (but bucking is not really an issue with the X as far as I can tell). Does the X even buck? Plenty of rough suspension posts about the X but don't recall any bucking complaints about the X and sheetmetalfab says his X4 doesn't buck at all.
This whole thing makes me wonder if ST even knows what they are doing when it comes to the Talon R???
H
HondaTech
Guest
My GMs suspension guy also took some travel out of his shocks when they were modified.
While I've never ridden in it offroad, its a completely different animal just in the parking lot at work. But for the money he spent I would hope for the results he got.
While I've never ridden in it offroad, its a completely different animal just in the parking lot at work. But for the money he spent I would hope for the results he got.
On the east side of the Mississippi we don't have many whoops over here or at least at the trails I have ridden at. But I would imagine that it would buck somewhat in the whoops. On the right jump it seems to stay pretty flat. The suspension is somewhat too stiff but the car handles great. Not sure if the suspension geometry for trail riding and climbing should be different than what the Talon X has but I can tell you it does climb like a madman (or a billy goat as ST called it)! It kind of makes me wonder if the suspension geometry that bucks in the whoops will also propel it up over obstacles instead of leaving the rear end sucked into the obstacle. Not sure I'm making sense with that. There are other brands that I ride with that have troubles doing what my Talon does... I want to get my suspension tuned for the positive reasons that PaulF stated.
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H
hondabob
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
I just got my Weller Racing springs and will post my installation and testing. I'm just installing the rear spring set. I'm at 14,600 miles now and my rear tender springs are probably in need of replacement due to the miles. We have to remember Shock Therapy is way more into racing suspension and does a great job for the desert race cars. For low speed washboard and rocky trails they really need to test with an 80 year old with back trouble and Honda also missed the boat here especially with the Talon X. I will be moving weight from the front to the rear and it does help. I have been filling the passenger floor and seat area with tools and my spare. I carry lots of tools to help in repairing the non Honda breakdowns. Most of our rides have 15 to 25 UTV's and most have lots of miles since all of the guys are retired.
I tried the All things UTV Tender Springs. How do you figure out the height of the COG?
PaulF
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Lifetime Member
You need accurate scales. Weigh the front and back level then raise one end (any amount but the more you raise, the more accurate the outcome) and weigh again. Take the weights, amount raised and put them into formula and you can determine the height of the COG.
F
The other half of the ST solution is replacing the stupid reservoir rubber butt plug end with a real valve and a rebound(?) adjuster. Has anybody done that mod along with the springs? Success or fail? I suspect one of my rear shocks has lost N2 pressure, causing some annoying symptoms.
Oh, and yeah, on a trail i frequent with mellow whoops, 30 to 35 MPH for most, and stomp brakes to ~20 for a couple smooth, but larger ones. Otherwise the bucking tends to kick me in the lower back pretty seriously.
Oh, and yeah, on a trail i frequent with mellow whoops, 30 to 35 MPH for most, and stomp brakes to ~20 for a couple smooth, but larger ones. Otherwise the bucking tends to kick me in the lower back pretty seriously.
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CumminsPusher
Just a Honda doing Honda things.
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
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Yes the X bucks. Haven’t driven R to compare but when I first rode the X at the dunes it had a nasty little kick that made me slow down across a small whoop section. Front was taking it super good.
H
hondabob
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
The Weller Racing Springs look good. I'm testing with way less preload for about 12 inches of ground clearance and setting the cross over rings to touch just before tender spring coil bind. Without springs there is around 2 to 3 inches of ground clearance. I'm going to have way less then the Weller Racing preload settings on my friends Talon R, the bottom 2 pics. I'm starting with 3.5 inches to the rings, the Weller settings are way more.
H
hondabob
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Got it ready for testing. Its at full travel and near tender spring coil bind, still got a little more if needed. I guessed at the cross over rings and got right near coil bind the first time. I don't run the sway bar and like all four tires on the ground in the tough sections. I'm used to the lean in the corners and didn't run the sway bar on my Yamahas, Kawasaki's and other Hondas. I'm hoping for a super soft ride.
H
hondabob
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Lifetime Member
I agree with Paul F on the tone of the ST videos. If I had a business that sold aftermarket upgrades for UTV's of most all brands, I wouldn't use my business as a platform to review different models. Especially not with his awful attitude. It is easy for a man in his shoes to choose to be professional and vocalize perceived negatives in a particular model in a constructive way - which would highlight an opportunity for him to sell his products. He simply chose not to, and that leaves a poor taste. Heck, he even puts the Talon X in the same category as a RZR S model in the initial review video.
CID
Well-Known Member
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Supporting Member
Effective this year, I'm an ex off road motorcycle rider (50 years). I had always run stock suspension, thought it was good enough until a few years ago I tried an aftermarket upgrade, springs and valving. The improvement was nothing short of miraculous.
I won't go into a long description 'cause I'm not versed in suspensions but it transformed the bike. Cost about $800 for two forks and one shock (springs and valving, not total replacement).So ST's <$1500 seems reasonable to me and if they can do anywhere near what Cogent Dynamics did for my dual sport motorcycle (DR650) that transformation should also be dramatic, at least I hope so. Simply changing the springs without addressing the damping is a half step. It's important to note that our Fox Shocks are NOT the shocks you'd get from Fox, we're getting Fox Shocks built to Honda's specs, whether Fox liked the specs or not.
It's also important that I (or anyone else) can't expect ST (or anyone else) to overcome engineering design screw ups. Like others, I'm not real happy with Justin's delivery and will shop for other shock valving/springing shops before I spend the big bucks.
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H
hondabob
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Lifetime Member
My Talon is not as bad as my YXZ and I doubt any one will be racing a Talon in the high speed desert whoops at 60 to 80 mph without a $20,000 4 seat build with a 20 to 30 gallon fuel cell. If the spring kit doesn't improve it enough then the valving will be next plus at 15,000 miles it wouldn't hurt to get the shocks serviced. My buddy got the valving so we can compare.
CID
Well-Known Member
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Supporting Member
A buddy of mine is going to ST next week and will get springs, valving and iQS. He is making a spare tire mount in the back like they suggest, I will let you know his impression.
H
hondabob
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Lifetime Member
Shock Therapy does great on the race setup and all you need to do is watch some of the desert race videos to see it. They make good improvements for trail riders and so far only one of the guys wasn't happy with his RZR 1000 setup. He had valving and springs done. At Shock Therapy Justin has some great info on his videos and I like his opinion on the UTV's. He tells it like he sees it and no Happy Talk. I do think If Justin was 80 years old and did the final testing with his mother on board he could do better for us older trail riders.
I'm impressed with my Weller Racing spring kit for the rear. Still got more testing and adjustments to do but I couldn't be happier. I expected an improvement but it definitely is better then I expected. I will add my little Suzuki after I get it setup without the extra weight in the back. I'm going to install a bed extender and spare tire for the extra weight on my 2020 Talon. My buddies had their RZR's and YXZ's improved at Weller Racing so that's why I went with Weller Racing.
I'm impressed with my Weller Racing spring kit for the rear. Still got more testing and adjustments to do but I couldn't be happier. I expected an improvement but it definitely is better then I expected. I will add my little Suzuki after I get it setup without the extra weight in the back. I'm going to install a bed extender and spare tire for the extra weight on my 2020 Talon. My buddies had their RZR's and YXZ's improved at Weller Racing so that's why I went with Weller Racing.
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