Shock Therapy Talon Review

[HondaTech]

@HondaTech Thanks for the heads up on GForce Racing Technologies! He was awesome to talk with and I am going to be taking my car to them and they are going to set it up totally! Nothing against ST but GForce gave me a great feeling and that's where I am spending my $$!

Gary is a great dude to work with. My GM sent him a picture of his Talon in the last race and he immediately fired back some suggestions to limit body roll. He really knows his stuff and has sure helped make a difference in the way his Talon performs.

 

[Admin]

 

[1HasBeen]

In a recent video, ST mentioned they were working on Fox IBP shocks, three inch rears, for the R, which may allow them to cover up some of the buck with tuning of the bypass ports.

 

[BPINE]

I just got to taking the Talon out with my new Dirt Road Fab bed extender/ spare tire carrier and as Shock Therapy suggests it made a big difference, much more that the tender springs that is for sure. Now for a full revalve and springs then I think I will have something good enough for me.

 

[CID]

I just got to taking the Talon out with my new Dirt Road Fab bed extender/ spare tire carrier and as Shock Therapy suggests it mad a big difference, much more that the tender springs that is for sure. Now for a full revalve and springs then I think I will have something good enough for me.

View attachment 208980

I want this bed extender but need to know - if you backed up to a wall, how far away would your tires be? IOW- will it clear my trailer ramp? I have 22".

 

[BPINE]

I want this bed extender but need to know - if you backed up to a wall, how far away would your tires be? IOW- will it clear my trailer ramp? I have 22".
View attachment 208994

I think it will work, mine is 19" with 30" tires 5x2 offset wheel for spare.

 

[tradosaurus]

Now looking at my R to see if there is anything that can be done to improve the geometry, I started measuring and applying the "formula" that he shows in the video and it just doesn't add up for me. Sorry for the crude drawing but it will help see what I see.

• The Green lines represent the point of the ground and forward thrust through the pivot point. This is easy to figure out.
• Black circle is fully extended rear suspension.
• The Blue line represents the COG's approximate Longitudinal location. This is calculated with a 220 lb driver and nothing else. This calculation is based on Honda's 55% rear weight. Without scales, it is impossible to determine the actual line but it is pretty close.
• Also without scales, it is impossible to calculate the COG's Altitudinal location. BUT...
• If what he says is true, the COG would need to be somewhere where the Red box is and that is near impossible on a SXS like the Talon. If the Talon's COG was that low, it would very difficult to roll.
• The Pink circle is where the COG most likely is on the Talon so by his demonstration on the whiteboard, the Talon should not buck.

This is very crude but points out some interesting things. I will see if my buddy still has his race scales and get some accurate weights, calculate the exact COG and post back.

View attachment 206057

Could you put a small 2 x 8 or 2 x 10 on top of a 3 ton jack and try different lift points (lifting until the wheels clear the ground) until you get it to balance? That would tell you where the CG resides.

 

[PaulF]

Could you put a small 2 x 8 or 2 x 10 on top of a 3 ton jack and try different lift points (lifting until the wheels clear the ground) until you get it to balance? That would tell you where the CG resides.

We need both the horizontal and vertical COG for the X and only the vertical for the R and the "Jack and Block" method only gives you the horizontal. To get the vertical COG (how high the COG is), you need scales, lifts, math and time. I have scales, lift and know the math. Only thing missing for me is time .

 

[tradosaurus]

We need both the horizontal and vertical COG for the X and only the vertical for the R and the "Jack and Block" method only gives you the horizontal. To get the vertical COG (how high the COG is), you need scales, lifts, math and time. I have scales, lift and know the math. Only thing missing for me is time .

I thought rule of thumb for height was the center of the camshaft?

 

[PaulF]

I thought rule of thumb for height was the center of the camshaft?

Preface: Everything below is approximate for discussion/example reasons and only pertains to the R's 4+ link suspension. The X uses totally different rear suspension and does not work or react the same.

Camshaft? I always heard it was the crankshaft. Regardless, there is a 10" difference between the cam and the crank on the Talon and In either case, neither is accurate enough. Just an inch or two difference in vertical COG on the R will be the difference between an "Anti-Squat" above 100% or below 100% when the suspension is fully drooped. That means the difference between bucking and not bucking.

Preliminary work with the measurements and numbers and using different COG's, we are talking about fraction of inches in some of the geometry or an inch or two in the vertical COG that can cause different reactions like bucking. For instance, if you move the front trailing arm mount 1 inch down (or the front upper arm 1 inch up), and/or raise the COG a couple inches and/or limit the droop a couple inches, it may completely fix the bucking but makes the machine not as good at rock crawling.

The biggest dilemma for me is I like to do almost everything and the geometry that causes the bucking problem also helps propel the machine to go over large rocks when the suspension is extended during crawling. The forces under that circumstance are the opposite of what causes flipping backwards when accelerating. This is why the R is NOT known for flipping backwards (flipping forward is a different story).

It is a catch 22, you can't have it both ways. The geometry that makes a good desert racer over whoops is the exact opposite geometry that makes a good rock crawler.

If only I could make the suspension geometry adjustable for my different riding conditions. Hmm !

 

[Hometeam]

Preface: Everything below is approximate for discussion/example reasons and only pertains to the R's 4+ link suspension. The X uses totally different rear suspension and does not work or react the same.

Camshaft? I always heard it was the crankshaft. Regardless, there is a 10" difference between the cam and the crank on the Talon and In either case, neither is accurate enough. Just an inch or two difference in vertical COG on the R will be the difference between an "Anti-Squat" above 100% or below 100% when the suspension is fully drooped. That means the difference between bucking and not bucking.

Preliminary work with the measurements and numbers and using different COG's, we are talking about fraction of inches in some of the geometry or an inch or two in the vertical COG that can cause different reactions like bucking. For instance, if you move the front trailing arm mount 1 inch down (or the front upper arm 1 inch up), and/or raise the COG a couple inches and/or limit the droop a couple inches, it may completely fix the bucking but makes the machine not as good at rock crawling.

The biggest dilemma for me is I like to do almost everything and the geometry that causes the bucking problem also helps propel the machine to go over large rocks when the suspension is extended during crawling. The forces under that circumstance are the opposite of what causes flipping backwards when accelerating. This is why the R is NOT known for flipping backwards (flipping forward is a different story).

It is a catch 22, you can't have it both ways. The geometry that makes a good desert racer over whoops is the exact opposite geometry that makes a good rock crawler.

If only I could make the suspension geometry adjustable for my different riding conditions. Hmm !

Thanks PaulF for that insight!! I hate all the people that jump at what Shock Therapy has said and have tried to dispel those at times.

This next statement does not cover everything but does let some know what is the basics of the Talon suspension: Going over "whoops" fast is more suspension geometry than bad rough riding shocks....yes shocks play a part in it but its not the real issue in that area. The rough ride that some are disappointed in is springs (the smaller part) and valving (the biggest part but they go hand in hand). The Talon is a great handling car and can be made plush if that is what you want. The suspension geometry is not wrong and doesn't make that a problem. Like PaulF pointed to, it is hard to have both whoops and amazing rock crawling because in everything you are giving up something to accomplish one or the other. So many have jumped saying the Talon has terrible unfixable suspension unless you hang your spare off the back end by x feet. That is not the case. That will help in the whoops! If you listen to what Shock Therapy is saying over and over in his video it is "the suspension geometry does not work well/fast in the whoops". He says little about how the car actually handles, as most of his driving is whoops. On a side question for most....How much driving in a normal day are you actually going through whoops? My guess is not as much as you think and a simple spring and valve job and you will be extremely happy with your ride. I have talked to different suspension guys and that is what they have basically said and has been my experience.

Now for my first hand experience. I have a YXZ also and it has the X2 shocks and that thing rides like it is on a pillow (to soft to me and my riding style but it is unbelievably plush) and by Shock Therapy's standard has worse suspension than the Talon does. The X2 is a bypass shock and is an extremely soft ride. I 100% know after I change the springs and valving my Talon will be exactly what I want it to be. Most factory suspension needs to be changed to each individuals riding style and desires. The factory has to many people and regulations they have to account for that there is no way to fit every ones wants and meet regulations.

Thanks again Paul for your efforts to make all our riding experiences better.

 

[Jerrysxs]

Well guys he is talking about the Talon X that has less travel and wheelbase. The R is better and he is right about adding more weight in the rear for better suspension performance. A spring kit from any of the suspension guys will make a huge improvement in the Talons. They probably get new machines every 2,000 to 3,000 miles and most will not break until 4,000 miles unless there are abused or race machines. My YXZ has 20,000 miles and no major breakage. My 2016 Pioneer 1000 had 19,000 miles when I sold it and no break downs but I did have to spend $40.00 on repair parts. I'm at 14,423 miles on my Talon and nothing broke. My RZR 1000 buddies are pissed about over $10,000 in repairs and 2 to 3 weeks in the shop for constant repairs. The 2018 RZR 1000 is close to 11,000 miles and the 2019 RZR Turbo is over 13,000 miles. They are getting tired of getting towed or riding in my Honda to get their truck and trailer. On the long runs I ride in the back so its easier to help them when they break down. He does mention the Honda had the best engine and trans and will be the best for reliability. The Turbo's are built a bit better but they need a lot of improvements for hard use. Just the belt drive maintenance is a PITA and expensive. The Kawasaki doesn't have enough HP for the weight so sales are poor. If they add a Turbo the wet clutch will be a problem. The bottom line is I really like my Talon. The new Yamaha to be announced next month may be good if it doesn't have belt drive. I have changed way to many belts on Polaris, Kawasaki, and Yamaha. Can-Am screwed my buddy in a big way so I refused to buy a Can-Am. Polaris is so bad I needed 3 of them so I would have something to drive. Polaris has a good fun factor but you need a new one every 3,000 miles. I think Polaris or Cam-Am may have a real transmission for 2021 or 2022.

I am wanting to soften my ride for mountain and trail riding. I was saving up for springs and shock tuning, what do you suggest? Would like to eliminate the throttle bounce going across the rough terrain

Well guys he is talking about the Talon X that has less travel and wheelbase. The R is better and he is right about adding more weight in the rear for better suspension performance. A spring kit from any of the suspension guys will make a huge improvement in the Talons. They probably get new machines every 2,000 to 3,000 miles and most will not break until 4,000 miles unless there are abused or race machines. My YXZ has 20,000 miles and no major breakage. My 2016 Pioneer 1000 had 19,000 miles when I sold it and no break downs but I did have to spend $40.00 on repair parts. I'm at 14,423 miles on my Talon and nothing broke. My RZR 1000 buddies are pissed about over $10,000 in repairs and 2 to 3 weeks in the shop for constant repairs. The 2018 RZR 1000 is close to 11,000 miles and the 2019 RZR Turbo is over 13,000 miles. They are getting tired of getting towed or riding in my Honda to get their truck and trailer. On the long runs I ride in the back so its easier to help them when they break down. He does mention the Honda had the best engine and trans and will be the best for reliability. The Turbo's are built a bit better but they need a lot of improvements for hard use. Just the belt drive maintenance is a PITA and expensive. The Kawasaki doesn't have enough HP for the weight so sales are poor. If they add a Turbo the wet clutch will be a problem. The bottom line is I really like my Talon. The new Yamaha to be announced next month may be good if it doesn't have belt drive. I have changed way to many belts on Polaris, Kawasaki, and Yamaha. Can-Am screwed my buddy in a big way so I refused to buy a Can-Am. Polaris is so bad I needed 3 of them so I would have something to drive. Polaris has a good fun factor but you need a new one every 3,000 miles. I think Polaris or Cam-Am may have a real transmission for 2021 or 2022.

What do you recommend for springs and or springs and shock retuning? I am trying to lessen the throttle bounce going over the rough terrain on Ride Royal Blue. Have no other complaints with the X.

 

[CID]

I am wanting to soften my ride for mountain and trail riding. I was saving up for springs and shock tuning, what do you suggest? Would like to eliminate the throttle bounce going across the rough terrain

What do you recommend for springs and or springs and shock retuning? I am trying to lessen the throttle bounce going over the rough terrain on Ride Royal Blue. Have no other complaints with the X.

I was concerned about throttle bounce after reading about it, well before I had my Talon. It's been a nonissue in the 2000 miles I've ridden. I think it's more throttle discipline than anything else, that and our direct geared drive which is much snappier than a belt drive.

A short background, I was raised by a single mom, broke. For that reason gas mileage was very important in my formative years, rocking the gas pedal used to work the carb's accelerator pump, the more you moved the gas pedal, the more raw fuel you squirted into the engine. I learned to rest my foot against the transmission hump which virtually eliminated rocking the gas pedal. I still use that technique in every vehicle I drive.

In 2000 miles, I've accidentally bumped the throttle 4 or 5 times. I'm ok with that, I love the total throttle control in the Talon's driveline.

My environment -

 

[Jerrysxs]

I have tried that, and if I set my suspension down to the lowest setting, it’s much better. Do you leave your machine in high, or run it in low over this type of terrain.

 

[CID]

I have tried that, and if I set my suspension down to the lowest setting, it’s much better. Do you leave your machine in high, or run it in low over this type of terrain.

I use low frequently, no reason to punish the clutch when my speeds are that low.

It was my intent to be in Arizona this spring and have Shock Therapy do springs and valving on my Talon but Covid put a stop to that. I've since learned that ST's setups (springs and valving) tend to be a bit stiff, more suited for racing - I'm not that guy and have since learned of Weller Racing, also in AZ. Like everyone, I'd like the absolute 'best for me' settings but that's wishful thinking. Most aftermarket suspension shops will be better than stock, or they'd be out of business.

If you're looking for a plusher ride, remove your swaybar links and tie up the swaybar. It's an easy and free experiment and made my Talon better for me. If you're a trail racer, don't do this. On the R, we can't just disconnect one side of the swaybar, it will hit the upper trailing arm, I'm not sure about the X.

 

[Jerrysxs]

I use low frequently, no reason to punish the clutch when my speeds are that low.

It was my intent to be in Arizona this spring and have Shock Therapy do springs and valving on my Talon but Covid put a stop to that. I've since learned that ST's setups (springs and valving) tend to be a bit stiff, more suited for racing - I'm not that guy and have since learned of Weller Racing, also in AZ. Like everyone, I'd like the absolute 'best for me' settings but that's wishful thinking. Most aftermarket suspension shops will be better than stock, or they'd be out of business.

If you're looking for a plusher ride, remove your swaybar links and tie up the swaybar. It's an easy and free experiment and made my Talon better for me. If you're a trail racer, don't do this. On the R, we can't just disconnect one side of the swaybar, it will hit the upper trailing arm, I'm not sure about the X.

I spoke to weller and they use the lemon springs and just revalve. Seems like everyone has a varied opinion. I also considered just replacing the springs with Bandit springs.

 

[PaulF]

I spoke to weller and they use the lemon springs and just revalve. Seems like everyone has a varied opinion. I also considered just replacing the springs with Bandit springs.

After what I have experienced and discovered about ST, I don't trust them anymore. They are basically a "one size fits all" sales team and they concentrate on racing, not trail riding. Some of their claims on their Talon R spring kit are inaccurate and others plain false.

I called him out on the video about the R having longer trailing arms and a totally different suspension and that his "bucking" explanation didn't apply to the R. He corrected himself and said he would do another video on the R's 4 link suspension. I am still waiting for that video.

On top of that, another member wanted to buy my ST springs so he called ST and told them my setup and type of riding. They told him because I Dune and he wanted a trail ride setup that my springs would not work so he ordered a new set. His "Trail" set of springs are the same ones they sold me for my dune setup. I am not happy about that to say the least. Anyone interested in a set of ST springs for an R???

I decided to talk to several others and felt comfortable with Kyle at Weller Racing. My shocks are being delivered to them today for their spring/revalve makeover. They have everything from a slow trail to a fast dune setup but they are totally different for obvious reasons so you can't have both. I have slowed down at the dunes a little and I am no longer in a race with everyone so I am going to have them give me a medium-plush trail ride because I am now more focused on comfort and not so much speed anymore. I should have them back in a week and see how they perform.

If you're looking for a plusher ride, remove your swaybar links and tie up the swaybar. It's an easy and free experiment and made my Talon better for me. If you're a trail racer, don't do this. On the R, we can't just disconnect one side of the swaybar, it will hit the upper trailing arm, I'm not sure about the X.

YES, sway bar makes for a rough ride and sucks when rock crawling. Because I like to do everything, I elected to install removable sway bar links. I can disconnect the sway bar in 30 seconds. So far I would say it is the best mod I have done on my machine, hands down. Just pull the pin on both sides...

And stow away like this.

Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect - Quick Release Link

Our Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect Link quickly disconnects and swing up out of the way into a custom bracket for unrestricted axle articulation during off-road driving like rock crawling

andymccoyracecars.com

 

[Lil_Steve]

After what I have experienced and discovered about ST, I don't trust them anymore. They are basically a "one size fits all" sales team and they concentrate on racing, not trail riding. Some of their claims on their Talon R spring kit are inaccurate and others plain false.

I called him out on the video about the R having longer trailing arms and a totally different suspension and that his "bucking" explanation didn't apply to the R. He corrected himself and said he would do another video on the R's 4 link suspension. I am still waiting for that video.

On top of that, another member wanted to buy my ST springs so he called ST and told them my setup and type of riding. They told him because I Dune and he wanted a trail ride setup that my springs would not work so he ordered a new set. His "Trail" set of springs are the same ones they sold me for my dune setup. I am not happy about that to say the least. Anyone interested in a set of ST springs for an R???

I decided to talk to several others and felt comfortable with Kyle at Weller Racing. My shocks are being delivered to them today for their spring/revalve makeover. They have everything from a slow trail to a fast dune setup but they are totally different for obvious reasons so you can't have both. I have slowed down at the dunes a little and I am no longer in a race with everyone so I am going to have them give me a medium-plush trail ride because I am now more focused on comfort and not so much speed anymore. I should have them back in a week and see how they perform.


YES, sway bar makes for a rough ride and sucks when rock crawling. Because I like to do everything, I elected to install removable sway bar links. I can disconnect the sway bar in 30 seconds. So far I would say it is the best mod I have done on my machine, hands down. Just pull the pin on both sides...
View attachment 216970

And stow away like this.
View attachment 216971

Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect - Quick Release Link

Our Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect Link quickly disconnects and swing up out of the way into a custom bracket for unrestricted axle articulation during off-road driving like rock crawling

andymccoyracecars.com

When you first posted about this product back in June I ordered myself a kit, having the choice to quickly run with/without a rear sway bar is appealing to me. All sorts of delays related to covid means I just got the kit delivered last week, I just installed it yesterday. It's a smart design and will enable me to tailor the comfort of my ride even more. FWIW, i'm running the Eibach rear sway bar and had no trouble installing this kit, installation should be nearly the same for anyone not running a stock rear sway bar.

 

[Hometeam]

I spoke to weller and they use the lemon springs and just revalve. Seems like everyone has a varied opinion. I also considered just replacing the springs with Bandit springs.

I see you are in Indian. I am in Illinois and I am going to be taking my Talon X to G-Force suspension Technologies in Johnson City, Tennessee. They are a good option for the east side of the country. I am heading to Hatfield/McCoy trails September 11-14 and I am swinging through G-Force on Thursday the 10th and getting Springs, valving and High low adjusters added. I am beyond excited to get this done....I have done suspension on all performance things I have owned and it is one of the most noticeable things you can do.

 

[CID]

I see you are in Indian. I am in Illinois and I am going to be taking my Talon X to G-Force suspension Technologies in Johnson City, Tennessee. They are a good option for the east side of the country. I am heading to Hatfield/McCoy trails September 11-14 and I am swinging through G-Force on Thursday the 10th and getting Springs, valving and High low adjusters added. I am beyond excited to get this done....I have done suspension on all performance things I have owned and it is one of the most noticeable things you can do.

Care to tell us what that's going to cost? It's ok if it's nunna my bidness. ☺ Your avatar shows an X right?

 

[Grnminivan]

So what is the difference between the x and the R? I know the R has much longer trailing arms and 2.5 shocks. Is that the only differences?
I am trying to decide between the 2 mostly for 2 track trails in the mountains and I just want to have the best ride I can.
Good information on this thread as well.