Shock Therapy Talon Review

[hondabob]

The Talon is sooo much fun its easy to keep my Fun Meter Pegged. Did another test today. I have it set at 12 inches of ground clearance with a 15 pound tool bag in the back. I'm running 12 PSI in the back and 10 in the front. I tried 16 yesterday and its still amazing but I rarely hit anything at high speed so 10 and 8 may be ok if I'm not going over 45 mph. Next test will be with the Suzuki Motorcycle in the back and more preload to keep it at 12 inches of ground clearance. I'm doing the same 60 mile loop with my stock 2020 Talon R. I run the cross over rings up enough to get about 95% of the tender spring before cross over.

 

[Admin]

 

[Ugly]

Thanks PaulF for the comments and pictures. They help a lot.

 

[IDIOT]

I luv me sum Talon R dual range, 6 spd, DCT, paddle shiftin', geared, NO DAMN BELT, sport SxS. 😎 The YXZ was in the running until I saw guys trying to rock climb the thing, the 5 speed gearing is still wrong after yearly attempts to get it right. The high rpm horsepower lit those tires right up in the climb, not my style. I really like being able to up shift on those long, flat cruising sections instead of spinning the motor up for no reason.

Yep, had a 2017 YXZ SS SE and it was a fun machine but was the WRONG machine for what i like to do.

 

[TalonMatt]

I just added the Dirt Works bed with Rotopax gas and water on the gate. Also added the JEI Off-road spare tire carrier. Back of the Talon is definitely down a bit now. Will have to see how it handles with the extra weight and if that’s what it needs.

 

[CID]

Since this is sorta the Talon suspension thread, I'll add this -

Answering a question elsewhere, I said that removing the sway bar would soften the suspension 'some' because the swaybar ties the left and right suspension together, both spring rate and shock valving, in effect making both stiffer/firmer. Since the Talon will never be accused of being plush or supple, a light went on, an AHA moment. So last night I removed both SB links and tied the bar up to the frame.

I'm happy to report it did exactly what I'd hoped - my R rides much better and compared to stock, is 'nearing' plush. Perfect, no, of course not, but noticeably softer than with the swaybar connected.

Note that I don't drive like my hair's on fire, so the minimal lean resulting from disconnecting the SB won't affect my riding. If you DO ride like your hair is on fire (you KNOW who you are ), this probably isn't something you should consider. This experiment is FREE and I can always go back.

Also note that I have my rear crossover rings raised 20 turns (15 on the fronts) and on my Talon is as far as I can go. This means I use as much travel as possible while on the softer tender springs before crossing over to the stiffer mains. This may also mean that I'll get a worse rear bucking on harder hits, not sure.

You can see that there's still a bit of clearance left, before coil bind, on the left rear but not much. If that zip tie gets cut from pinching, 20 turns will prove to be too many. Both sides are pretty much the same.

How to compress to check? Park across a rut, opposite corners. For the curious, I completely forgot to look at the fronts. 🤫

 

[Lil_Steve]

Answering a question elsewhere, I said that removing the sway bar would soften the suspension 'some' because the swaybar ties the left and right suspension together, both spring rate and shock valving, in effect making both stiffer/firmer. Since the Talon will never be accused of being plush or supple, a light went on, an AHA moment. So last night I removed both SB links and tied the bar up to the frame.

I'm happy to report it did exactly what I'd hoped - my R rides much better and compared to stock, is 'nearing' plush. Perfect, no, of course not, but noticeably softer than with the swaybar connected.

Note that I don't drive like my hair's on fire, so the minimal lean resulting from disconnecting the SB won't affect my riding. If you DO ride like your hair is on fire (you KNOW who you are ), this probably isn't something you should consider.

I should probably do this to my Teryx 800 since that thing rides really harsh. I like to drive my Talon, um, enthusiastically and I have no hair so I think it's safe to say you weren't referring to me.

Pretty sure my sway bar kept me from rolling it on it's side here...

 

[CID]

I should probably do this to my Teryx 800 since that thing rides really harsh. I like to drive my Talon, um, enthusiastically and I have no hair so I think it's safe to say you weren't referring to me.

Pretty sure my sway bar kept me from rolling it on it's side here...

View attachment 207586View attachment 207587

Ummm, enthusiastically indeed. An' yer bald cuz yer hair's burnt off.

 

[PaulF]

I disconnected my sway bar last year for a short time. It did improve the ride but the body lean while coming down a winding paved road made me realize I really needed it so I hooked it right back up.

Rock crawling a few weeks ago, my BIL commented on how well the front articulated but the back was s***. I decided I sometime need a sway bar and sometimes not so I ordered a Quick Release Sway Bar Link kit to try. It allows you to disconnect/connect the sway bar in less than 30 seconds. Hope it doesn't rattle too much...

Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect - Quick Release Link

Our Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect Link quickly disconnects and swing up out of the way into a custom bracket for unrestricted axle articulation during off-road driving like rock crawling

andymccoyracecars.com

 

[PaulF]

Now looking at my R to see if there is anything that can be done to improve the geometry, I started measuring and applying the "formula" that he shows in the video and it just doesn't add up for me. Sorry for the crude drawing but it will help see what I see.

• The Green lines represent the point of the ground and forward thrust through the pivot point. This is easy to figure out.
• Black circle is fully extended rear suspension.
• The Blue line represents the COG's approximate Longitudinal location. This is calculated with a 220 lb driver and nothing else. This calculation is based on Honda's 55% rear weight. Without scales, it is impossible to determine the actual line but it is pretty close.
• Also without scales, it is impossible to calculate the COG's Altitudinal location. BUT...
• If what he says is true, the COG would need to be somewhere where the Red box is and that is near impossible on a SXS like the Talon. If the Talon's COG was that low, it would very difficult to roll.
• The Pink circle is where the COG most likely is on the Talon so by his demonstration on the whiteboard, the Talon should not buck.

This is very crude but points out some interesting things. I will see if my buddy still has his race scales and get some accurate weights, calculate the exact COG and post back.

View attachment 206057

His "formula" is the wrong one for the R suspension.
It is correct for the X.

For the R use the anti-squat calc shown here:

4-Link Suspension Guide | Anti -Squat, Anti-Dirve, and Roll Center Explained

Crawlpedia is an off-road encyclopedia featuring a complete guide to 4-link and 3-link suspension characteristics.

www.crawlpedia.com

View attachment 206060

This is a simplified approximation that neglects a few factors, but it is an easy place to start without several advanced degrees.
The lower link is the lower blue line, the upper blue line follows the front half of the upper A-arm (not the pivot axis for reasons I am not getting in to here).

Still bucks but not for the reasons in the video.


Edit: to clarify, this is the method to find the instant center. This is not a comment on how to modify the suspension for rock crawling.

@lee, I want to revisit these posts and would like to see if you can help? My so-called "Buddy" won't let me use his scales and I really always wanted some so I ordered a set and they arrived today (Speedway is the bomb, ordered on the 10th, delivered on the 12th). I will be working on ramps and a platform and use my 4 post rack to weigh and lift one end so I can accurately determine the COG on any SxS.

You mentioned above that the upper A-Arm does not use the pivot axis to determine the Instant Center so after I get all set up and determine my COG, are you willing to give me some pointers on how to exactly determine the Instant Center on my R?

 

[CID]

I disconnected my sway bar last year for a short time. It did improve the ride but the body lean while coming down a winding paved road made me realize I really needed it so I hooked it right back up.

Rock crawling a few weeks ago, my BIL commented on how well the front articulated but the back was s***. I decided I sometime need a sway bar and sometimes not so I ordered a Quick Release Sway Bar Link kit to try. It allows you to disconnect/connect the sway bar in less than 30 seconds. Hope it doesn't rattle too much...

Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect - Quick Release Link

Our Honda Talon Sway Bar Disconnect Link quickly disconnects and swing up out of the way into a custom bracket for unrestricted axle articulation during off-road driving like rock crawling

andymccoyracecars.com

My photo host is down so I can't post the photos - I was just going to remove one link for my test but it looks like the SB will hit the upper A arm (wrong term) when articulating so I removed both and tied the SB up so it wouldn't hit. I didn't know that a quick connect link was available for the Talon, its existence would indicate that interference won't be a problem. 🤔

 

[PaulF]

My photo host is down so I can't post the photos - I was just going to remove one link for my test but it looks like the SB will hit the upper A arm (wrong term) when articulating so I removed both and tied the SB up so it wouldn't hit. I didn't know that a quick connect link was available for the Talon, its existence would indicate that interference won't be a problem. 🤔

No, you can't just remove one side. The picture of the Quick Disconnect kit is misleading. It includes 2 links and hangers, not just one. You disconnect the right side, then the left, then hang the left and then hang the right. Their video only shows part of the procedure...

https://andymccoyracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/0N6A1520.mp4

 

[hondabob]

The Weller Racing rear spring kit makes a good improvement. I'm testing on a 60 mile loop that I usually don't ride because its so rough and with large water bars. I had to add more preload with my Motorcycle in the back. The additional weight is around 130 pounds and its centered at the end of the bed. I'm still testing and comparing it with my 2020 Talon R with the tender spring cross over rings set to near tender spring coil bind. Both have the sway bar removed and that makes the suspension better especially in the rocky sections. I should get done testing sometime next week.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

@lee, I want to revisit these posts and would like to see if you can help? My so-called "Buddy" won't let me use his scales and I really always wanted some so I ordered a set and they arrived today (Speedway is the bomb, ordered on the 10th, delivered on the 12th). I will be working on ramps and a platform and use my 4 post rack to weigh and lift one end so I can accurately determine the COG on any SxS.

You mentioned above that the upper A-Arm does not use the pivot axis to determine the Instant Center so after I get all set up and determine my COG, are you willing to give me some pointers on how to exactly determine the Instant Center on my R?

View attachment 207600

Your IC Will not change throughout the normal travel with stock pivot points with the same weights, only where you change ride height vs stock would change the point normally through the travel. Scales are probably best for setting corner balance weights and spring rates.

 

[Lil_Steve]

No, you can't just remove one side. The picture of the Quick Disconnect kit is misleading. It includes 2 links and hangers, not just one. You disconnect the right side, then the left, then hang the left and then hang the right. Their video only shows part of the procedure...

https://andymccoyracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/0N6A1520.mp4

I think I need that kit.

 

[PaulF]

I think I need that kit.

I know I need it!

As soon as I get it and install it, I'll do a review and report back on install, ease of use, rattle (my biggest concern) and overall thoughts.

 

[HondaTech]

Just a perspective from another suspension guy, who did my GMs suspension.

He said the ST spring kits are way over sprung and make the X ride stiffer than stock.

He also mentioned theyve never had a car win Best In The Desert. But he has, multiple times. 😁

 

[Hometeam]

Just a perspective from another suspension guy, who did my GMs suspension.

He said the ST spring kits are way over sprung and make the X ride stiffer than stock.

He also mentioned theyve never had a car win Best In The Desert. But he has, multiple times. 😁

Where is this guy from? I think you are in Indiana and I am in Illinois. I would love to have someone more local to do my suspension. I was going to be sending mine off in the next month.....

 

[HondaTech]

Where is this guy from? I think you are in Indiana and I am in Illinois. I would love to have someone more local to do my suspension. I was going to be sending mine off in the next month.....

I'm in KY, work in OH.

GForce Racing is in Tennessee

 

[Hometeam]

Well I didn't have any of that right except where I am from! 😂 I will give them a call! Thanks!

 

[Hometeam]

@HondaTech Thanks for the heads up on GForce Racing Technologies! He was awesome to talk with and I am going to be taking my car to them and they are going to set it up totally! Nothing against ST but GForce gave me a great feeling and that's where I am spending my $$!