Talon Turbo

[BPINE]

Thanks Paul, I had some longer pulls but had a hard tome finding them on the log it was an hour of driving. I will try to do a better run when I have a more open area. Bottom line is I ran it a Glamis for several day pretty good and it is still running so it must be close. When I look at the AFR pulling hard up a dune it always seems to be in the mid 11's. I do need to pull the plugs and have a look at them.

 

[Admin]

 

[PaulF]

Thanks Paul, I had some longer pulls but had a hard tome finding them on the log it was an hour of driving. I will try to do a better run when I have a more open area. Bottom line is I ran it a Glamis for several day pretty good and it is still running so it must be close. When I look at the AFR pulling hard up a dune it always seems to be in the mid 11's. I do need to pull the plugs and have a look at them.

Reading plugs will only tell you if you are too lean by melting and if the plugs are melted, it is too late. The plug only shows the latest fueling right before shutdown so by the time you come to a stop and shut down, the plug color is going to reflect the last few seconds. Reading the plugs is not going to tell you much about the full throttle pull unless you dare do a full throttle pull and high RPM shut down (I wouldn't if it were me). Your Wideband logging will tell you volumes more and many times more accurate than reading the plugs. Reading plugs dates back before AFR meters and is only useful when you cannot read the AFR.

Jackson is running those pretty rich but that is somewhat the (old school) norm for forced induction. It is "supposed" to reduce EGT's, although more recent theories and testing have proven it does not reduce EGT's in many cases. EGT's are derived from many different factors and a richer mixture doesn't always ensure they go down and can be a waste of fuel. I am sure JR did their research and made sure they got the EGT's within acceptable limits. If they didn't, they are just wasting fuel for nothing.

What I have seen is that the higher you go in altitude, the richer the engine will run. Honda has some very strange Barometric/Altitude compensation tables that make no sense to me and I believe it causes improper fueling as altitude increases. More testing is needed to confirm this but I have not been able to go lower than 4000 feet for additional testing. Hopefully in the next month I will.

If you ever get a chance to log at the 5000 foot level, I would be VERY curious to see if you find it running rich (like in the 9:1 range) and experience engine sputter/misfire like some others have experienced/reported at higher altitudes.

 

[BPINE]

Reading plugs will only tell you if you are too lean by melting and if the plugs are melted, it is too late. The plug only shows the latest fueling right before shutdown so by the time you come to a stop and shut down, the plug color is going to reflect the last few seconds. Reading the plugs is not going to tell you much about the full throttle pull unless you dare do a full throttle pull and high RPM shut down (I wouldn't if it were me). Your Wideband logging will tell you volumes more and many times more accurate than reading the plugs. Reading plugs dates back before AFR meters and is only useful when you cannot read the AFR.

Jackson is running those pretty rich but that is somewhat the (old school) norm for forced induction. It is "supposed" to reduce EGT's, although more recent theories and testing have proven it does not reduce EGT's in many cases. EGT's are derived from many different factors and a richer mixture doesn't always ensure they go down and can be a waste of fuel. I am sure JR did their research and made sure they got the EGT's within acceptable limits. If they didn't, they are just wasting fuel for nothing.

What I have seen is that the higher you go in altitude, the richer the engine will run. Honda has some very strange Barometric/Altitude compensation tables that make no sense to me and I believe it causes improper fueling as altitude increases. More testing is needed to confirm this but I have not been able to go lower than 4000 feet for additional testing. Hopefully in the next month I will.

If you ever get a chance to log at the 5000 foot level, I would be VERY curious to see if you find it running rich (like in the 9:1 range) and experience engine sputter/misfire like some others have experienced/reported at higher altitudes.

There are also other things to look for in a plug besides mixture and IMO you have a bit more than a few seconds to tell something but you have a point the Nascar guys run wide open and shut them down, I am positive they know more than me.. I built my own motors for my 410 sprint car for over 10 years so I think I have some idea on what to look for but I appreciate your info. A friend of mine has the JR kit and he runs above 5k feet and it is way to rich, runs poorly.

Side note are you the same Paul F that posted a comment on Max Powell's you tube channel the other day?

 

[snuffnwhisky]

You can read the plug for detonation and making sure you have the correct heat range plug. To check AFR you do need a new plug and a WOT pull and shut off but it is easier to log AFR's if you have the tools to do it.

 

[PaulF]

There are also other things to look for in a plug besides mixture and IMO you have a bit more than a few seconds to tell something but you have a point the Nascar guys run wide open and shut them down, I am positive they know more than me.. I built my own motors for my 410 sprint car for over 10 years so I think I have some idea on what to look for but I appreciate your info. A friend of mine has the JR kit and he runs above 5k feet and it is way to rich, runs poorly.

Side note are you the same Paul F that posted a comment on Max Powell's you tube channel the other day?

My misunderstanding, I thought we were strictly talking about AFR here. Reading plugs most definitely has other uses.

That would make 3 turbos and 4 N/A machines that I know of that run extremely rich at high altitudes. Every machine that I have been able to verify with a Wideband runs rich at 5000 feet, even the N/A with canned (non-stock) tunes done at or near sea level. The only tunes that run correct at 5000 feet are custom tunes done at 5000 feet but they start to run lean at 3000 feet and would most likely run dangerously lean at sea level.

I am convinced that the Baro/Altitude compensation tables in the stock tune are not correct. I may try to adjust them and see if I can correct this problem.

I have only posted 7 total comments on YouTube in however many years it has been around. My YouTube account name is not Paul F and I do not know who Max Powell is so I would have to say no. If you shoot me a link to the comment, I can confirm.

 

[BPINE]

Here is a video I made of the noise my system made.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Here is a video I made of the noise my system made.

The loud squealing? I would check for a boost or header leak. Always a good idea to go over all that after a few heat cycles anyways.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Here is a trend off my AFR/ Boost gauge, as you can see while building boost the afr is all over the place. After talking to someone that knows much more than me his opinion on the afr fluctuation is throttle input related due to foot moving on the pedal over bumps. I will post a few more graphs and it does go rich enough Probably over rich but takes a bit as it looks on the graph but the snapshot in time is only about 3 seconds.

View attachment 200894 View attachment 200907 View attachment 200908

Is that 12 psi with the stock setup? I thought they were wastegated to 8 psi.

 

[BPINE]

The loud squealing? I would check for a boost or header leak. Always a good idea to go over all that after a few heat cycles anyways.

I have checked every bolt and clamp on the thing several times, I think it went away on it's own but will need to take it out a few more times before I know for sure.

Is that 12 psi with the stock setup? I thought they were wastegated to 8 psi.

Yep all stock, Oscar said you could see some spikes up to 12. I checked the wastegate and everything is free and seems to work correctlly.

 

[HondaTech]

Is that 12 psi with the stock setup? I thought they were wastegated to 8 psi.

My bosses routinely shows over 10psi on gauge as well.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

I have checked every bolt and clamp on the thing several times, I think it went away on it's own but will need to take it out a few more times before I know for sure.


Yep all stock, Oscar said you could see some spikes up to 12. I checked the wastegate and everything is free and seems to work correctlly.

My bosses routinely shows over 10psi on gauge as well.

Good. I feel better about turning the boost up more on my pioneer now lol.

 

[HondaTech]

Good. I feel better about turning the boost up more on my pioneer now lol.

I'm hoping we'll soon be turning up the boost as well 😏

 

[MDFMac]

any more updates from anyone. i have the kit installed .. running at 14psi. and love it.

 

[McCarthy]

Vidya?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Has anyone been paying attention to the PAD Powersports FB page? Looks like they are developing and testing a Talon turbo kit that produces some YUGE! horsepower gains. They seem to be doing a ton of dyno and real world testing to refine the final product.

Jackson should take note... 🤣

 

[Hometeam]

Has anyone been paying attention to the PAD Powersports FB page? Looks like they are developing and testing a Talon turbo kit that produces some YUGE! horsepower gains. They seem to be doing a ton of dyno and real world testing to refine the final product.

Jackson should take note... 🤣

Yes I have been watching and that thing moves good!! I am waiting to see what they end up with and cost. That is there stage 1 kit putting down 205+hp and they are devoloping a stage 2+3 kit to follow. My question for PAD would be did or can they get into the ECU and adjust what Jackson Turbo had to get to to fix the elevation issue?? I really think big HP Talons are soon to be around.....kind of like the power the YXZ can produce and we get to Shift It!!!! The power side of the Talon is starting to get interesting!

 

[Smitty335]

Yes I have been watching and that thing moves good!! I am waiting to see what they end up with and cost. That is there stage 1 kit putting down 205+hp and they are devoloping a stage 2+3 kit to follow. My question for PAD would be did or can they get into the ECU and adjust what Jackson Turbo had to get to to fix the elevation issue?? I really think big HP Talons are soon to be around.....kind of like the power the YXZ can produce and we get to Shift It!!!! The power side of the Talon is starting to get interesting!

BOOM!

 

[hondabob]

There is no warranty and if the Boost gets too high it will go BOOM. I would think going with slightly more boost should be ok. Several of the YXZ guys went too high and broke a rod. One of the CanAm guys goes way up on the boost and has to use race gas.

 

[PaulF]

Jackson should take note... 🤣

Trust me, Jackson is WELL aware of PAD and a couple others out there. Jackson had to stay within a prescribed box to be Honda Factory Authorized and sell the kits through Honda dealerships and maintain the Honda warranty and offer a 1 year warranty to their kit.

One criteria was not too much power to start breaking things on a daily stock machine.

Another reason is the fuel system. The fuel pump and lines are nearing its ideal maximum output.

But the main criteria was to maintain CARB/EPA compliance so that Honda could authorize them. That included the Catalytic Converter in the stock muffler (thus the reason you cannot use an aftermarket muffler with the Jackson factory authorized turbo). The stock muffler limits the HP to the 160-170 level so the Factory Authorized Turbo is limited to that. Any more HP will require a different exhaust.

If you think the Race Talons are the same, think again. Just look at the custom Gibson exhaust they run. Jackson has an entirely different (non CARB compliant) tune for the race team, but they are allowed to do that for race use.

The Talon motor can do much better than 165 hp, once you upgrade a few parts (fuel and exhaust) but you no longer have the compliance and those kits will be "For Race Use Only". 49 states don't give a crap yet but the CARB "police" have been threatening to start issuing tickets to those that are running modified, non CARB compliant machines in places like Glemis.

Jackson has probably been working on a high output "Race" setup since day 1. They just need to be careful how and to whom they sell it to. If they do something wrong, they could easily lose their CARB/EPA certification and that would be a disaster for them.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

You guys do know they make turbo pistons and aftermarket rods for the Talon engine, right?

If the tune is safe throughout the RPM range and the engine internals are up to the task, i don't think the engine will be the weak link making 250+ HP. Maybe the clutches will be next? Maybe the transmission gears? Diffs? Whatever it is, there will be an upgrade/fix for that in no time. People are really starting to take notice of the Talons and so is the aftermarket.

Fuel pump, lines and injectors are easy to upgrade if you know what to look for.....