P700 EPS recall done + fuel pump. Now it dies when driving.

[Glock21user]

Man...that's a long ass post!

Good, we need that type of post with lots of information to help figure these things out.
Thank you for your time in putting it all out here.

 

[AUSXS]

Excellent observation. If I let it stall out (leaving it in drive), come to a stop then restart the engine, it does seem to go a little further before it dies again.
What could this tell us?

Just guessing. If it is a safety cutout maybe the fault has not quite cleared when slipped into neutral and remains until revs are increased. Mine has never stopped when idling. If it is not ECU temp or ground maybe it could be something to do with varying resistance in the wiring due to time operating (really guessing here). At idle system voltage may be lower (less heat, resistance?) and not trigger the fault? This goes against my comment about possibly running better when at higher revs.
Wiring loom fault?
ECU fault?

 

[DG Rider]

Just guessing. If it is a safety cutout maybe the fault has not quite cleared when slipped into neutral and remains until revs are increased. Mine has never stopped when idling. If it is not ECU temp or ground maybe it could be something to do with varying resistance in the wiring due to time operating (really guessing here). At idle system voltage may be lower (less heat, resistance?) and not trigger the fault? This goes against my comment about possibly running better when at higher revs.
Wiring loom fault?
ECU fault?

I meant to comment earlier that mine has also never died at idle.

 

[Slackjaw]

Did they do the switch yet?

I think it would (which reminds me, I've been wanting to check codes since mine shut down again)...but the thing is, even if it detects a problem, it may stop the engine, but the rest of the system stays on.

I don't know if we all have the same problem or not. Seems like several have had it, so I keep hoping for one of those bulletins like @HondaTech posts from Honda addressing the issue. It certainly seems like it's going to be one of those nightmare quirks...at least for me. The problem is so rare in my case, it's going to be difficult to duplicate it enough to see what's wrong.

Let me summarize my timeline:

Back in early summer, my machine shutdown for the 1st time. I cannot verify if the dash did the reset during this event or not. It did fine the rest of the ride. This was a HOT day, and the last time I would get to ride for a few a bit due to heat. In the down time, I poked and prodded, but didn't find any smoking gun. Maybe just some water in the gas I thought?

The next ride, it did something again (another 90 degree day). This time, I know the dash didn't reset...but this was an odd thing. It's almost like the engine braking increased for a few seconds like it lost spark, but the machine pulled out of it before I could hit the gas and never actually died. Ran fine the rest of the day.
Honestly, I'm not even sure if it actually died here. Could have simply been the PCM cutting the IACV down to help engine braking, as it does sometimes. This was very prominent on my 2014, but this one has never seemed to do that quite as agressively.

Somewhere in those 2 events, I "checked" the grounds, but didn't clean them (a bone headed move on my part).

Added some Heat treatment for water in fuel. Next ride, fairly cool day getting rained on, nothing. So I'm like...ok, for one it actually was "bad gas"...LOL.

Then the next ride was the big DNF moment (thus far). Higher elevation, so maybe 70's. A few hours into the ride, 3 times with like 3 minutes, the dash reset and shut down. I pulled over and looked, poked, and prodded. Nothing. Cut the ride short, ran fine all the way back to the trailer (several miles).

At this point, I purchased and installed a new ignition switch, new PCM (which I did not install), and removed and cleaned those grounds. Around 6 months and several hundred miles after, and not so much as a miss. To the point that I pulled the new PCM I was carrying out of the storage box and left it at home... because, you know...it's fixed?

2 rides after that (last weekend), hours into the ride, it shut down 2 times in about a mile...only the second time it's shut down multiple times in one ride. Did a trail side ground removal and scrape, and it ran fine the rest of the way back to staging...but as you see above, it doesn't always show its hand right away.

Took the grounds off (again), sanded the tabs and eyelets to fresh and clean, reinstalled and coated to keep corrosion out, which I didn't do last time. Poked, prodded, and tested. Found nothing. Made an emergency ignition switch bypass.

Went out yesterday. 46 miles in, it shut down once, then ran perfectly for another 15 miles back to the truck.

Clearly, it's not the grounds. Could be a bad ground wire/crimp (or power wire, for that matter) somewhere...but it's going to have to get worse than it is to find it.

If it's not the ground, then what inspired it to run for months with no issue? That new ignition switch? And if that's the case, are they really going bad that often? Is there a bad batch? Does the P1K use the same switch? Do I really have to buy a new switch for this thing every 6 months? At this rate of shut down, it's impossible to use my emergency switch to confirm.

And if course...there's the ECU/PCM. I hadn't installed the brand new one because I was hoping to find an answer to exactly what the cause was, and the "computer" gets blamed when people can't figure out the real reason. Guess I'm gonna install it next ride and just wait and see.

So glad I didn't buy that glitchy, overheating 1000 over the ultra reliable 700 now

Service mgr called and said the ignition switches are backordered from Honda.
He said he could order one for RMATV but the price difference was $30 and he wanted me to cover it. I refused. That machine can sit in his garage for the next 10 years before I put another nickel into it.

 

[DG Rider]

Service mgr called and said the ignition switches are backordered from Honda.
He said he could order one for RMATV but the price difference was $30 and he wanted me to cover it. I refused. That machine can sit in his garage for the next 10 years before I put another nickel into it.

Cant say I blame you...

 

[Glock21user]

Service mgr called and said the ignition switches are backordered from Honda.
He said he could order one for RMATV but the price difference was $30 and he wanted me to cover it. I refused. That machine can sit in his garage for the next 10 years before I put another nickel into it.

Don't blame you a bit.
f*** em let them suffer a bit.

 

[osobad]

Service mgr called and said the ignition switches are backordered from Honda.
He said he could order one for RMATV but the price difference was $30 and he wanted me to cover it. I refused. That machine can sit in his garage for the next 10 years before I put another nickel into it.

Its not a perfect world so issues are going to happen but I have always said customer service is easy when things are going right . Its how problems are handled when customer service shines. In this case I would cost this dealership 10 fold for their bulls***. I would also let them know it also. Nothing like bad PR

 

[DG Rider]

Dicked around a little tonight. Checked for codes and there was none. Messing with the main relay, it appears as though it could mimic this symptom...BUT, simply pulling the relay sets a code.

Tomorrow at work I'll find a sacrificial relay to pop open and test. My goal is to break the main feed without breaking the signal side from the PCM and see if that sets a code. If it doesn't, then I could simply be a bad main relay that fails momentarily after a while or when it gets hot, but we'll see.

I had looked into the relays as a possibility back after the 1st incident, but since there was no dash reset...or I simply didn't catch it, I was looking for different symptoms. I did replace one with a new (and kept the old as a spare), but I'm thinking that was the fuel pump relay, since there were suggestions that a fuel pump recall might be coming.

I've also broke down and ordered ANOTHER ignition switch from RMATV. I really have my doubts this is the issue again...if it was even the issue the 1st time, but...

Im torn a bit. On one hand, I wanna try and see what causes this since it seems to be happening. On the other hand, I just want it dealt with. So I'm thinking I may just put the new switch AND the new PCM in before the next ride. That way, pretty much even thing outside of a bad harness or some programming glitch has been eliminated. Or at least the most likely culprits. If it does it after that, I start tearing into the harness.

 

[Smitty335]

Dicked around a little tonight. Checked for codes and there was none. Messing with the main relay, it appears as though it could mimic this symptom...BUT, simply pulling the relay sets a code.

Tomorrow at work I'll find a sacrificial relay to pop open and test. My goal is to break the main feed without breaking the signal side from the PCM and see if that sets a code. If it doesn't, then I could simply be a bad main relay that fails momentarily after a while or when it gets hot, but we'll see.

I had looked into the relays as a possibility back after the 1st incident, but since there was no dash reset...or I simply didn't catch it, I was looking for different symptoms. I did replace one with a new (and kept the old as a spare), but I'm thinking that was the fuel pump relay, since there were suggestions that a fuel pump recall might be coming.

I've also broke down and ordered ANOTHER ignition switch from RMATV. I really have my doubts this is the issue again...if it was even the issue the 1st time, but...

Im torn a bit. On one hand, I wanna try and see what causes this since it seems to be happening. On the other hand, I just want it dealt with. So I'm thinking I may just put the new switch AND the new PCM in before the next ride. That way, pretty much even thing outside of a bad harness or some programming glitch has been eliminated. Or at least the most likely culprits. If it does it after that, I start tearing into the harness.

Chicken snakes are your friend for rodent issues!

 

[DG Rider]

Chicken snakes are your friend for rodent issues!

Thanks! If I ever have any, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[DG Rider]

So I popped open a relay and tested out what happens to the main relay if it were to break contact on the load side without breaking the switch circuit.
Using a high tech non-conductive tool made by Bic, I found that the machine does immediately lose ignition and the screen blanks and resets when the relay releases. So it could mimic what's going on here.

What's interesting is, if you break and release the contact quickly, it DOESN'T set a code of any kind...but doing so quickly actually doesn't kill the machine (it drops out for a second and picks back up). I don't know if this would be true while moving down the trail in gear.

However, a more prolonged breaking of the contact WILL set a code 64 , but at that point, the display will stay on even with the key off, forcing you to remove the relay or a battery cable to reset it. So there could be a window where the main relay might be able to do this without setting a code, but it seems like it would need to be a perfect amount of time, so I'm thinking this probably isn't the issue on mine. Still...since I have a spare one, I swapped them out, just in case.

My ignition switch shipped yesterday and I should have it tomorrow. Like I said above, it's going in with the new PCM, and then I'll cross my fingers.

 

[Slackjaw]

So I popped open a relay and tested out what happens to the main relay if it were to break contact on the load side without breaking the switch circuit.
Using a high tech non-conductive tool made by Bic, I found that the machine does immediately lose ignition and the screen blanks and resets when the relay releases. So it could mimic what's going on here.

What's interesting is, if you break and release the contact quickly, it DOESN'T set a code of any kind...but doing so quickly actually doesn't kill the machine (it drops out for a second and picks back up). I don't know if this would be true while moving down the trail in gear.

However, a more prolonged breaking of the contact WILL set a code 64 , but at that point, the display will stay on even with the key off, forcing you to remove the relay or a battery cable to reset it. So there could be a window where the main relay might be able to do this without setting a code, but it seems like it would need to be a perfect amount of time, so I'm thinking this probably isn't the issue on mine. Still...since I have a spare one, I swapped them out, just in case.

My ignition switch shipped yesterday and I should have it tomorrow. Like I said above, it's going in with the new PCM, and then I'll cross my fingers.

Thanks for bird dogging this.

I googled and found a PCM module around $250 on fleabay. That sound about right for cost?

 

[DG Rider]

Thanks for bird dogging this.

I googled and found a PCM module around $250 on fleabay. That sound about right for cost?

$187 at RMATV, but not in stock and ships in 7-10 business days.

 

[DG Rider]

Hmmm...the PCM part number has changed for 2022 and is cheaper. Wonder what's up with that?

My 2020: 38770-HL3-F02
2022: 38770-HL3-MK2

 

[DG Rider]

New ignition switch and PCM installed. We'll see how tomorrow goes...

 

[Glock21user]

New ignition switch and PCM installed. We'll see how tomorrow goes...

Best of luck to you.

 

[DG Rider]

47 miles. No issues.

 

[Slackjaw]

I had a dream my Pioneer was street legal and my GF was cruising with me wearing a sundress.

Unfortunately, she won't ride with me since it breaks down more than a 1979 Yugo and the dealership can't figure out what's wrong with it...even if they could get parts.

Buying that pioneer was my worst decision in a long time. It's been a money pit, caused me much stress and has never been reliable enough to ride with friends. Dealer support has been a nightmare. They couldn't catch the ball with Velcro gloves.

 

[Glock21user]

What's weird to me is that we have had next to no issues with our P7 or either Rincon for that matter yet some do.
You would think they are built by the big 3 on a Monday or Friday.

 

[Slackjaw]

What's weird to me is that we have had next to no issues with our P7 or either Rincon for that matter yet some do.
You would think they are built by the big 3 on a Monday or Friday.

I bought the pioneer since I had amazing service life from my foreman (fourtrax), rancher 350 and my Rincon.