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P700 EPS recall done + fuel pump. Now it dies when driving.

osobad

osobad

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I could be way off here but something that was said just started buzzing around in my head. Correct me if I am wrong but was it
not said that if he put it back in neutral it would stay running? Kept thing how it won't start in gear unless you have your foot on the brake. I just wonder if the ignition in that particular circuit as an intermittent issue. Just thinking out loud and could be way off base. My mind works weird sometimes
 
Slackjaw

Slackjaw

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Dealership says they think it's the ignition switch. They quoted $251 to replace the ignition. I finally found the email where they have me an extended 2 yr warranty since my factory 1 year was screwed up by them.
They had no record of it, luckily I did!

Now, according to them...ignition switches are backordered.

Everything is a battle with these folks.
They will mark things up 100% without blushing. $129 per hr labor and couldn't troubleshoot Thier way out of a wet paper bag. Unskilled labor basically.
Screenshot 20220119 192928
 
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DG Rider

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Dealership says they think it's the ignition switch. They quoted $251 to replace the ignition. I finally found the email where they have me an extended 2 yr warranty since my factory 1 year was screwed up by them.
They had no record of it, luckily I did!

Now, according to them...ignition switches are backordered.

Everything is a battle with these folks.
They will mark things up 100% without blushing. $129 per hr labor and couldn't troubleshoot Thier way out of a wet paper bag. Unskilled labor basically.
View attachment 314345
Well...how long before they get it?

Literally 45 seconds ago...

Screenshot 20220119 181029


It will typically say "ships in *** days" for stuff on back order.

But hey...that's something that makes sense with the symptoms you have.
 
H

HondaTech

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Dealership says they think it's the ignition switch. They quoted $251 to replace the ignition. I finally found the email where they have me an extended 2 yr warranty since my factory 1 year was screwed up by them.
They had no record of it, luckily I did!

Now, according to them...ignition switches are backordered.

Everything is a battle with these folks.
They will mark things up 100% without blushing. $129 per hr labor and couldn't troubleshoot Thier way out of a wet paper bag. Unskilled labor basically.
View attachment 314345

Shoot we need to charge more. 😁
 
Slackjaw

Slackjaw

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Shoot we need to charge more. 😁

I made sure when I dropped it off that the paperwork said "owner suspects ignition switch".
They just guess at stuff, zero actual trouble shooting. If I hadn't put it on the paperwork they would likely have said the tires needed to be rotated.

The funny part is when they quoted me to replace the ignition switch they thought it was going to be billed out at normal rate as there was no record of my 2 yr warranty in the system. I found the email confirming the 2 yr extended (in addition to the factory 1 yr)
So they are now either eating the charges or billing it to Honda .

Just for the record, the HPP was rejected on Jan 9 2021 according to them because the unit was a demo. (Sold to me as new)
No mention of the rejection to me nor anything in the VIN file. They never followed up on it or tried aftermarket.
Just plan on these folks dropping the ball every single time.

ETA: the SM contacted me yesterday regarding the keyswitch. He said the price between what they pay Honda (backordered) and what they can buy it from RMATV is $30 And asked me if I would cover the difference. I declined. I'm not putting another nickel into that effing machine.
 
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AUSXS

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I am having exact same issues with my 700. Shuts down but only after running for a good while (an hour or more). Colder days sometimes will run longer. Starts immediately and runs fine again only to shut down after a few minutes. Many starts to get home.
I think it is temperature related. ECU sits above the motor and gets hot.
Is there a thermal cut out in the ECU?
Or possibly the temperature increase could lead to a conductivity issue in the harness?
Talking to dealer.
 
DG Rider

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I am having exact same issues with my 700. Shuts down but only after running for a good while (an hour or more). Colder days sometimes will run longer. Starts immediately and runs fine again only to shut down after a few minutes. Many starts to get home.
I think it is temperature related. ECU sits above the motor and gets hot.
Is there a thermal cut out in the ECU?
Or possibly the temperature increase could lead to a conductivity issue in the harness?
Talking to dealer.
@FlipKing proposed this earlier. Coincidentally, last night I used a hair dryer to heat my ECM up to about 140° via the thermometer sitting next to it (sure it wasn't that hot internally). It did nothing, and the other weekend when I was riding and it shut off it was actually a fairly cool day. So it doesn't seem to be my problem, but it could be yours. Check and clean those grounds if you haven't.
 
Slackjaw

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I am having exact same issues with my 700. Shuts down but only after running for a good while (an hour or more). Colder days sometimes will run longer. Starts immediately and runs fine again only to shut down after a few minutes. Many starts to get home.
I think it is temperature related. ECU sits above the motor and gets hot.
Is there a thermal cut out in the ECU?
Or possibly the temperature increase could lead to a conductivity issue in the harness?
Talking to dealer.
Does the display reboot when it dies?
Try popping it into neutral when it starts dying. Mine will usually stay running if I'm fast enough. It's often the difference between a dead battery and walking home or not.
 
DG Rider

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Okay...I wanted to comment on the whole "put it in neutral and it keeps running" thing.

I was thinking I had tested this out before, but I wanted to do it again today to make sure what I was saying was true.
If you're going down the trail and cut the ignition switch off, the engine keeps spinning due to the one way bearing in the torque converter to help provide engine braking. This happens until you come to almost a complete stop. If you turn it back on before you come to a stop, and while the RPM are still high enough, it will catch and start running again if you put it in neutral.
Likewise, if you turn it off and back on with it in gear and hit the brakes, as you near stopping, the machine will also catch and start running with a slight sputter. That's because the start in gear feature has been engaged... But, there is a rev limiter that's engaged until you let off the gas that might also involve rpm...hence the sputtering.

In short, while the neutral drop maneuver keeps the engine running during this shutdown/reboot, I don't think it should be taken as a clue as to what the problem is.
 
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AUSXS

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Does the display reboot when it dies?
Try popping it into neutral when it starts dying. Mine will usually stay running if I'm fast enough. It's often the difference between a dead battery and walking home or not.
Yes it will keep running if slipped into neutral. I find it stops again much faster if you do this. When it reboots it seems to go a bit further. This is why I thought the ECU might be the problem. Good suggestion though, beats walking.
 
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AUSXS

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Yes it will keep running if slipped into neutral. I find it stops again much faster if you do this. When it reboots it seems to go a bit further. This is why I thought the ECU might be the problem. Good suggestion though, beats walking.
Yes I also realise it is rebooting when slipped into neutral but often stops as soon as I start driving. If it comes to a halt and restart it seems to go a bit further then stop again.
I get the full Christmas Tree etc. I have cleaned all battery terminals, engine earth. Possibly seems to get further between stopping when operating at higher revs. I think it is a safety cut out of some sort. Temp, conductivity etc? Engine never runs above two bars on the temp gauge.
 
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DG Rider

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Welp...after 46 miles of riding, post ground redo, it did it again.
 
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Slackjaw

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Yes I also realise it is rebooting when slipped into neutral but often stops as soon as I start driving. If it comes to a halt and restart it seems to go a bit further then stop again.
I get the full Christmas Tree etc. I have cleaned all battery terminals, engine earth. Possibly seems to get further between stopping when operating at higher revs. I think it is a safety cut out of some sort. Temp, conductivity etc? Engine never runs above two bars on the temp gauge.

Excellent observation. If I let it stall out (leaving it in drive), come to a stop then restart the engine, it does seem to go a little further before it dies again.
What could this tell us?
 
Slackjaw

Slackjaw

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Out of curiosity, how many of you with this issue are Deluxe models vs base?
I have the 2019 deluxe. Only modification is I removed the magnet from the seat belt receiver end and have a backup light plugged into the 12v plug using a factory style male plug. Same problem with the backup light unplugged so that's ruled out.
I can't find the magnet, so can't easily reverse that mod. Fuel pump has been upgraded twice. Steering recall has been done.
Dealership has "found loose ground" twice.
Changed spark plugs & replaced battery.
 
Slackjaw

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FAIL-SAFE FUNCTION
The PGM-Fl system is provided with a fail-safe function to secure a minimum running capability even when there is trouble in the system. When any abnormality is detected by the self-diagnosis function, running capability is maintained by pre-programed value in the simulated program map. **When any abnormality is detected in the fuel injector, the fail-safe function stops the engine to protect it from damage.**

Can we assume a code would be blinking if a fuel injector fault shut the engine down?
 
Glock21user

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We have 2019 P7-4 Deluxe and thus far have not had this issue.
Approximately 1200 miles I believe.
 
DG Rider

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FAIL-SAFE FUNCTION
The PGM-Fl system is provided with a fail-safe function to secure a minimum running capability even when there is trouble in the system. When any abnormality is detected by the self-diagnosis function, running capability is maintained by pre-programed value in the simulated program map. **When any abnormality is detected in the fuel injector, the fail-safe function stops the engine to protect it from damage.**

Can we assume a code would be blinking if a fuel injector fault shut the engine down?
Did they do the switch yet?

I think it would (which reminds me, I've been wanting to check codes since mine shut down again)...but the thing is, even if it detects a problem, it may stop the engine, but the rest of the system stays on.

I don't know if we all have the same problem or not. Seems like several have had it, so I keep hoping for one of those bulletins like @HondaTech posts from Honda addressing the issue. It certainly seems like it's going to be one of those nightmare quirks...at least for me. The problem is so rare in my case, it's going to be difficult to duplicate it enough to see what's wrong.

Let me summarize my timeline:

Back in early summer, my machine shutdown for the 1st time. I cannot verify if the dash did the reset during this event or not. It did fine the rest of the ride. This was a HOT day, and the last time I would get to ride for a few a bit due to heat. In the down time, I poked and prodded, but didn't find any smoking gun. Maybe just some water in the gas I thought?

The next ride, it did something again (another 90 degree day). This time, I know the dash didn't reset...but this was an odd thing. It's almost like the engine braking increased for a few seconds like it lost spark, but the machine pulled out of it before I could hit the gas and never actually died. Ran fine the rest of the day.
Honestly, I'm not even sure if it actually died here. Could have simply been the PCM cutting the IACV down to help engine braking, as it does sometimes. This was very prominent on my 2014, but this one has never seemed to do that quite as agressively.

Somewhere in those 2 events, I "checked" the grounds, but didn't clean them (a bone headed move on my part).

Added some Heat treatment for water in fuel. Next ride, fairly cool day getting rained on, nothing. So I'm like...ok, for one it actually was "bad gas"...LOL.

Then the next ride was the big DNF moment (thus far). Higher elevation, so maybe 70's. A few hours into the ride, 3 times with like 3 minutes, the dash reset and shut down. I pulled over and looked, poked, and prodded. Nothing. Cut the ride short, ran fine all the way back to the trailer (several miles).

At this point, I purchased and installed a new ignition switch, new PCM (which I did not install), and removed and cleaned those grounds. Around 6 months and several hundred miles after, and not so much as a miss. To the point that I pulled the new PCM I was carrying out of the storage box and left it at home... because, you know...it's fixed?

2 rides after that (last weekend), hours into the ride, it shut down 2 times in about a mile...only the second time it's shut down multiple times in one ride. Did a trail side ground removal and scrape, and it ran fine the rest of the way back to staging...but as you see above, it doesn't always show its hand right away.

Took the grounds off (again), sanded the tabs and eyelets to fresh and clean, reinstalled and coated to keep corrosion out, which I didn't do last time. Poked, prodded, and tested. Found nothing. Made an emergency ignition switch bypass.

Went out yesterday. 46 miles in, it shut down once, then ran perfectly for another 15 miles back to the truck.

Clearly, it's not the grounds. Could be a bad ground wire/crimp (or power wire, for that matter) somewhere...but it's going to have to get worse than it is to find it.

If it's not the ground, then what inspired it to run for months with no issue? That new ignition switch? And if that's the case, are they really going bad that often? Is there a bad batch? Does the P1K use the same switch? Do I really have to buy a new switch for this thing every 6 months? At this rate of shut down, it's impossible to use my emergency switch to confirm.

And if course...there's the ECU/PCM. I hadn't installed the brand new one because I was hoping to find an answer to exactly what the cause was, and the "computer" gets blamed when people can't figure out the real reason. Guess I'm gonna install it next ride and just wait and see.

So glad I didn't buy that glitchy, overheating 1000 over the ultra reliable 700 now:rolleyes:
 
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