P1000 Honda Introduces Pioneer 1000 Limited Edition (LE) Models with I-4WD

[Hawk53]

While I am not sure where the sensors are, it works on the same principles as an ABS system. There is a tone wheel that the brake controller uses to count revolutions of the wheels. As long as they are within a +/-X number of revolutions it doesn't do anything. When they exceed that amount it will apply the brake to the wheel that is slipping until the revs get back within the tolerance band.

This, unfortunately precludes "defaulting to full lock" as that would mean locking the brake down which would stop the machine.

If you lose a sensor, you will still have 4WD it will just be 4WD with an open front diff. So if you lose traction on one of the front wheels, it will spin and the other wheel will not be pulling. You will still have the rear wheels locked and should have traction there.

The true locking diff in the standard and Deluxe models is superior from that as well as a pure torque to the ground standpoint but they require you to stop and lock before getting into a mess where this design lets you get out of a mess that you have gotten into without stopping.

Ya hear ya but my thought would be that it would still have diff lock capabilities and that would take over if the traction control failed.


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[ebkoz]

Oh yeah! Because I complained so much about being on a 30° incline with 2000
pounds of gravel in the bed and having to stop and get in and out and then hearing that gigantic "CLUNK" taking it out of gear and then using 2 feet for the brake and the gas so I don't go backwards when I take it out, the hill assist sound awesome to me.

Even though an emergency break would be preferred and easier and simpler I would think and this should've been on the initial release anyway!

Bed load capacity is 1000 lbs, the tow rate is 2000 lbs.

 

[Plumber101010]

I agree that full lockers are priceless but I have seen the new technologies do things that are just impossible for lockers and old school drivetrains to do! example, crawl control. Check it out;

Also, crawl control's computer will control the vehicle's throttle and brakes in a way that is NOT humanly possible. Anticipating side sliding and traction loss (ascending and descending) the system will trigger one or a combination of several wheel's brakes (including controlling the throttle/torque) to keep the vehicle moving perfectly straight at a set speed of (1 to 5 mph).

I just don't understand that video or Philosophy behind it. I don't get it at all. I've been a 4 x 4 man my whole life, trucks not UTV, and stuck is stuck is stuck is stuck. If you're losing traction with your tires and the tires are spinning in the mud or sand or whatever, I can't imagine ANY technology suddenly making those tires grab on the substance that it has lost traction in unless it grows spikes out of the tread!

 

[Plumber101010]

While I am sure I will be taken to task for daring to post, I will anyway.

Mine in red.

Why taken to task? I've always valued your opinion very much, though granted, you can be a bit persnickety LOL

As I said I haven't been here for quite a while dealing with issues but am I missing something crowhunter?

 

[Plumber101010]

While I am not sure where the sensors are, it works on the same principles as an ABS system. There is a tone wheel that the brake controller uses to count revolutions of the wheels. As long as they are within a +/-X number of revolutions it doesn't do anything. When they exceed that amount it will apply the brake to the wheel that is slipping until the revs get back within the tolerance band.

This, unfortunately precludes "defaulting to full lock" as that would mean locking the brake down which would stop the machine.

If you lose a sensor, you will still have 4WD it will just be 4WD with an open front diff. So if you lose traction on one of the front wheels, it will spin and the other wheel will not be pulling. You will still have the rear wheels locked and should have traction there.

The true locking diff in the standard and Deluxe models is superior from that as well as a pure torque to the ground standpoint but they require you to stop and lock before getting into a mess where this design lets you get out of a mess that you have gotten into without stopping.

And so the one thing you left out was what the probability of losing a sensor is? I understand it may be a best guess at best but just curious!

So what exactly are the three modes? If you have to manually put it in four-wheel-drive for the system to work, I'm assuming it's 2 wheel, four-wheel-drive and turf?

And so that really throws me now because if you have to have it in four-wheel-drive, and this intelligence system doesn't handle it in just "one drive mode" than all of a sudden I don't see the advantage.

Right now ALL of my shifting is done between 2 and 4 Wheel dr and most times I just leave it in four-wheel-drive because it's easier and so even with this intelligence system I'm still going to be shifting from 2 to 4 Wheel all the time correct?

I have yet to put it in full time four-wheel-drive diff lock. No need to that I have found because in four-wheel-drive or three wheels it climbs up the side of a WALL!!!

 

[Jimmy-AZ]

And so the one thing you left out was what the probability of losing a sensor is? I understand it may be a best guess at best but just curious!

So what exactly are the three modes? If you have to manually put it in four-wheel-drive for the system to work, I'm assuming it's 2 wheel, four-wheel-drive and turf?

And so that really throws me now because if you have to have it in four-wheel-drive, and this intelligence system doesn't handle it in just "one drive mode" than all of a sudden I don't see the advantage.

Right now ALL of my shifting is done between 2 and 4 Wheel dr and most times I just leave it in four-wheel-drive because it's easier and so even with this intelligence system I'm still going to be shifting from 2 to 4 Wheel all the time correct?

I have yet to put it in full time four-wheel-drive diff lock. No need to that I have found because in four-wheel-drive or three wheels it climbs up the side of a WALL!!!

I too have had 4x4 trucks for the last 45 years and some with Detroit lockers. You are right stuck is stuck but that is not the point of I-4WD. If you are in 3 feet of mud you are stuck. If you are in Muskeg you are stuck. If you are up to your axles pushing wet sand you are stuck. The I-4WD system is not going to get you unstuck when you are stuck but computer driven sensors are designed to adjust to the "Sensible" task at hand.

You are right these rigs will climb a wall if it could get what.............. traction right? I typically run in 2-wheel lock and only put it in I-4WD when it looks like it might get precarious. For me and my riding this works well, someone playing in the mud or from mud hole to mud hole would leave in I-4WD.

To me it boils down to two things, you riding area/terrain and stupidity. I use to race desert and you don't ride faster than your capabilities. If you drive down into a mud hole not knowing how deep it is and expect your machine to get you out of anything is what?............. Stupid........... Stupid is what stupid does (Forrest Gump). Like the fellow that told his wife why he needed a winch. After seeing the picture it looks like maybe a brain would more prudent. Just saying

 

[Amre2me2]

One of the most important features of the new I-4WD system, and one I haven't seen anyone mention, is the fact that it transfers ADDITIONAL torque to the wheel that isn't spinning. This will help keep you from getting stuck in more situations then a traditional locker because they don't transfer more torque to the wheel that isn't spinning.

Quoted from Honda Pro Kevin's website:
"I-4WD incorporates the industry’s first off-road brake traction control system to manage the amount of slip between left and right front wheels, applying torque to the wheel with greater grip. Combined with the Pioneer 1000’s Torque Biasing Limited Slip differential, I-4WD can provide as much traction force as a locking differential but with reduced steer effort and kickback. The result is excellent traction on a wide range of challenging surfaces, a more relaxed driving experience, and no need to stop and engage diff-lock."
" At the same time, this new BTCS system combines with Honda’s Torque Biasing Limited Slip differential—which automatically multiplies brake torque applied to the slipping front wheel and transfers it as drive torque to the high-traction front wheel. Working in concert, these two systems generate the traction-grabbing benefits of a locking differential, minus the need to stop and engage a separate differential lock."

 

[Plumber101010]

Dropping it off at the dealer for service and looking at the Kawasaki 6 seater
diesel and what's the first thing I see? A gigantic emergency brake handle right next to the steering wheel!!!! SMH at Honda!

And I'm falling in love with their seating because it's a six seater versus five and rear seat pushes forward and the cargo bed extends to the same size if not larger than the Honda alleviating the problem of gravel and dirt falling down in between seat because it's a solid surface.

It's actually the absolute perfect solution to choose between seating or bed capacity.

DONT HATE ME FOR SAYING NICE THINGS ABOUT THE COMPETITION

 

[Crow_Hunter]

One of the most important features of the new I-4WD system, and one I haven't seen anyone mention, is the fact that it transfers ADDITIONAL torque to the wheel that isn't spinning. This will help keep you from getting stuck in more situations then a traditional locker because they don't transfer more torque to the wheel that isn't spinning.

Quoted from Honda Pro Kevin's website:
"I-4WD incorporates the industry’s first off-road brake traction control system to manage the amount of slip between left and right front wheels, applying torque to the wheel with greater grip. Combined with the Pioneer 1000’s Torque Biasing Limited Slip differential, I-4WD can provide as much traction force as a locking differential but with reduced steer effort and kickback. The result is excellent traction on a wide range of challenging surfaces, a more relaxed driving experience, and no need to stop and engage diff-lock."
" At the same time, this new BTCS system combines with Honda’s Torque Biasing Limited Slip differential—which automatically multiplies brake torque applied to the slipping front wheel and transfers it as drive torque to the high-traction front wheel. Working in concert, these two systems generate the traction-grabbing benefits of a locking differential, minus the need to stop and engage a separate differential lock."

That isn't how it works.

Think about it. What you are saying is that you are creating torque from thin air. You can't do that.

You are limited by the torque produced by the engine, multiplied by the drivetrain, minus the losses created by the drivetrain.

A locker has equal torque on both wheels because it is connected by a set of gears that simulates a straight axle between the wheels. That means that when you have one wheel spinning freely, the other wheel will turn at the same rate because it is locked together That is the most torque you can have.

On an open diff (or even Hondas Torque Biasing Limited Slip) the wheels are allowed to spin at different speeds. The problem is that when one starts to spin, you don't have any torque because the open diff allows all the energy from the driveshaft to go into spinning the wheel that has no traction. The I 4WD works by giving the free spinning wheel something to "push" against (like it would if it wasn't spinning), in this case the brake rotor via the brake pad by turning kinetic energy into heat. That push slows the wheel down enough that the diff will allow the torque to "flow" to the other wheel. But what it also means is that the amount of torque you get on the non spinning wheels is directly proportional to the amount of torque being applied to overcome the brake on the spinning wheel which will always be less than that of a truly locked diff because of the mechanical losses, heat losses etc.

While it is better than having a completely open front diff it will never be as good as an actual mechanically locked diff on top of increasing your brake wear.

This is a somewhat technical explanation that is much better than what I can do.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

And so the one thing you left out was what the probability of losing a sensor is? I understand it may be a best guess at best but just curious!

So what exactly are the three modes? If you have to manually put it in four-wheel-drive for the system to work, I'm assuming it's 2 wheel, four-wheel-drive and turf?

And so that really throws me now because if you have to have it in four-wheel-drive, and this intelligence system doesn't handle it in just "one drive mode" than all of a sudden I don't see the advantage.

Right now ALL of my shifting is done between 2 and 4 Wheel dr and most times I just leave it in four-wheel-drive because it's easier and so even with this intelligence system I'm still going to be shifting from 2 to 4 Wheel all the time correct?

I have yet to put it in full time four-wheel-drive diff lock. No need to that I have found because in four-wheel-drive or three wheels it climbs up the side of a WALL!!!

That is the $2,800 question.

There is a guy on FB that broke a rear axle on a LE model and that is what the dealer is saying it will cost to repair it. I suspect it is because one or more of the sensors got damaged when he broke the axle and they are going to have to repair that.

It would be the same as breaking a tone ring in your ABS system. It wouldn't be cheap.

To get the benefits you have to have it in 4WD.

If you never lock your front diff now and you leave your current machine in 4WD all the time and it works for you then you would be very happy with the I4WD. You just leave it in 4WD and it will be identical to what you have now with the added benefit of doing the traction control if you were to start having your front wheels slip without having to stop and shift into 4WD lock or have the increased steering effort with 4WD lock. I think if you are satisfied with the current 4WD in your 3 seater the I4WD would be even better.

Yes, the only system out there that swaps between 2WD and 4WD in UTVs right now is the Hilliard diff used by Polaris, Textron/Badboy, and some models of John Deere. All other ones require you to pick one or the other.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

View attachment 47533 Dropping it off at the dealer for service and looking at the Kawasaki 6 seater
diesel and what's the first thing I see? A gigantic emergency brake handle right next to the steering wheel!!!! SMH at Honda!

And I'm falling in love with their seating because it's a six seater versus five and rear seat pushes forward and the cargo bed extends to the same size if not larger than the Honda alleviating the problem of gravel and dirt falling down in between seat because it's a solid surface.

It's actually the absolute perfect solution to choose between seating or bed capacity.

DONT HATE ME FOR SAYING NICE THINGS ABOUT THE COMPETITION

Keep in mind about the Mule Pro is that it is bigger, slower, heavier, longer, and doesn't have a locking front Diff.

But it is quieter, cooler, has a bigger bed, and a very durable CVT and a 3 year warranty from the factory.

My local dealer sells Kawi and the Mule Pro is his biggest seller by far but I live in a relatively flat to rolling area with lots of farmers. They love them. Every time I drive by there is someone loading up a new one on a trailer.

 

[Hawk53]

Still think they should have left the diff lock and added the I4WD to it.

 

[Plumber101010]

Keep in mind about the Mule Pro is that it is bigger, slower, heavier, longer, and doesn't have a locking front Diff.

But it is quieter, cooler, has a bigger bed, and a very durable CVT and a 3 year warranty from the factory.

My local dealer sells Kawi and the Mule Pro is his biggest seller by far but I live in a relatively flat to rolling area with lots of farmers. They love them. Every time I drive by there is someone loading up a new one on a trailer.

Drove the diesel but it's ridiculously slow, like 25 miles an hour max! They should know better. The gas does 45 and is very smooth and already comes with a warn 4000 pound winch!

That's horrible if you can't lock the diff!!! But are you sure about no front locking dif? Maybe different on a 2017?

I just naturally assumed it had one without asking the salesman because this had 2 buttons and one was 2 or 4 wheel drive and other was lock / unlock.

I can't imagine what lock or unlock would be for other than locking dif.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Still think they should have left the diff lock and added the I4WD to it.

I agree 100%. The I4WD should have been the 4WD position and the 4WD Lock should have still been there.

That would have let them say they have something that no other manufacturer has. Both an On-Demand traction control type system along with the ability to lock it in manually.

The other two "on demand" type systems the Can Am Visco Lok and the Polaris Hilliard system don't have a manual option.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Drove the diesel but it's ridiculously slow, like 25 miles an hour max! They should know better. The gas does 45 and is very smooth and already comes with a warn 4000 pound winch!

That's horrible if you can't lock the diff!!! But are you sure about no front locking dif? Maybe different on a 2017?

I just naturally assumed it had one without asking the salesman because this had 2 buttons and one was 2 or 4 wheel drive and other was lock / unlock.

I can't imagine what lock or unlock would be for other than locking dif.

For whatever reason, they don't do the diff lock on the Mule but they do on the Teryx for whatever reason.

 

[Plumber101010]

I agree 100%. The I4WD should have been the 4WD position and the 4WD Lock should have still been there.

That would have let them say they have something that no other manufacturer has. Both an On-Demand traction control type system along with the ability to lock it in manually.

The other two "on demand" type systems the Can Am Visco Lok and the Polaris Hilliard system don't have a manual option.

I agree also and I'm starting to wonder how Honda thinks? It doesn't appear that they are doing any outside sourcing for comments and maybe these guys need to actually drive them every day or come out of this little confined box they all appear to live in!

And maybe these engineers need to stop focusing so hard and wake up to some really common obvious logical things they seem to ALWAYS be missing.

Like was just mentioned leaving the diff lock, or having an emergency break, and just all these simple every day things that I don't understand why they are missing out on?

They're missing the trees for the forest or better said, the parking brake for that
i-4wd.

Sooooo focused on having this highly engineered vehicle that has "first in industry" everything...but last in industry basics everyone else already has.

 

[Plumber101010]

For whatever reason, they don't do the diff lock on the Mule but they do on the Teryx for whatever reason.

Yes I just called but I don't understand this at all. He said the lock unlock is for the rear diff?

I thought in and of itself when you put it in 4 x 4 both rear wheels and one front wheel is automatically driven so why would I want to lock the rear? I'm assuming in 4 x 4 there's a locker back there am I mistaken?

If not and both wheels on the rear in 4 x 4 can spin independent of each other then I would understand why there is a lock / unlock.

I'm about to give up on all this technology... Plus I think were taking this thread off-topic -)---/----(

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Yes I just called but I don't understand this at all. He said the lock unlock is for the rear diff?

That is correct. It allows you to turn on turf mode or locked rear diff. Just like the Honda.

I thought in and of itself when you put it in 4 x 4 both rear wheels and one front wheel is automatically driven so why would I want to lock the rear? I'm assuming in 4 x 4 there's a locker back there am I mistaken?

Depends on the design. My Defender will allow you to but it in 4WD and unlocked rear diff. It allows you to turn tighter while still having more traction. Don't forget that just because the diff is open/limited slip as long as you don't get one of the wheels on the axle spinning you will have both wheels pulling. So until you get wheel spin, you have 4WD but you lose a wheel when it spins. It is only when one wheel loses traction completely that you lose the torque on that axle.

I am not sure about the design of the Mule but I bet you can have it in 4WD with an unlocked rear diff. Most 4WD trucks are like this unless than have a Detroit/Aussie locker or Positraction or some other type of autolocking diff. If you lose traction on one front and one rear you won't go anywhere. My current truck is like this. My old truck had a Detroit locker in the rear diff so when one slipped the other caught. (A lot of fun on wet pavement) But it didn't have a locker on the front.

If not and both wheels on the rear in 4 x 4 can spin independent of each other then I would understand why there is a lock / unlock.

That is correct. If you unlock the diff, they can move independently even in 4WD.

I'm about to give up on all this technology... Plus I think were taking this thread off-topic -)---/----(

Mine in red.

A true 4WD locked front and rear is really only "needed" in some usually fairly specific situations. Most of the time a lock rear and an unlocked front 4WD is adequate. Honda used this for decades in their ATVs and only recently started putting a lockable diff option in some models. (Their flagship ATV, the Rincon, still doesn't have a locking front diff)

However, when you are in one of those situations where you need a lock, you REALLY need it otherwise you are going to have problems. For example slow off camber rock crawling where you may have one of your front wheels up in the air. In that situation an open or limited slip diff will have the wheel in the air spinning and the wheel on the ground not turning. That is where the I-4WD would help a lot because it would automatically apply the brake to the spinning wheel which would then "move" some of the torque to the wheel on the ground and pull you over. People with "3WD" Honda ATVs would do the same thing by running it against the front brakes in that same situation.

That is why I personally would prefer to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Not sure why all companies don't add the option to lock the front axle as an option on an off road vehicle. The price difference couldn't be that big and it opens up so much more options.

I am looking at you Honda/Kawi/Can Am/Polaris.

 

[Plumber101010]

Keep in mind about the Mule Pro is that it is bigger, slower, heavier, longer, and doesn't have a locking front Diff.

But it is quieter, cooler, has a bigger bed, and a very durable CVT and a 3 year warranty from the factory.

My local dealer sells Kawi and the Mule Pro is his biggest seller by far but I live in a relatively flat to rolling area with lots of farmers. They love them. Every time I drive by there is someone loading up a new one on a trailer.

Check your Messages

 

[Crow_Hunter]

I agree also and I'm starting to wonder how Honda thinks? It doesn't appear that they are doing any outside sourcing for comments and maybe these guys need to actually drive them every day or come out of this little confined box they all appear to live in!

And maybe these engineers need to stop focusing so hard and wake up to some really common obvious logical things they seem to ALWAYS be missing.

Like was just mentioned leaving the diff lock, or having an emergency break, and just all these simple every day things that I don't understand why they are missing out on?

They're missing the trees for the forest or better said, the parking brake for that
i-4wd.

Sooooo focused on having this highly engineered vehicle that has "first in industry" everything...but last in industry basics everyone else already has.

While I don't know for sure, I have a sneaking suspension that the engineers/marketing/sales group is in it for the job like I am with my job. I don't do the things I do at work except when I am at work. They probably aren't offroad enthusiasts and when they get off work, they go home and have other hobbies so some of the things that are "obvious" to people who are really into off road driving don't occur to them.

Or, even more likely, their upper management isn't and veto any of the good ideas the engineers/marketing/sales comes up with because they don't understand what would sell and only see the dollar signs for how much it will cost.