Keystone/Dakota pipelines

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Montecresto

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I agree fully that we need to transition away from fossil fuels. Personally I'm glad it's not up to me. How do our leaders balance it the need for increased taxes to move away from fossil fuels and the need for a strong economy? We in Alberta got a new carbon tax as of Jan 1st. Now EVERYTHING is more expensive. We see it first with fuel. Gas went up 0.046$ per L or about 0.20$ per gallon. How that's going to shake out in the end, we will see. All I know is that riding will continue to get more expensive.


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If the added taxes fuel (pun intended) our departure from environmental pollutants that result in the burning of fossil fuels, I'm ok with it. I hate the tax increases that have paid for our wars in the Middle East that perpetuate the use of polluting fossil fuels.
 
GlockMeister

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Some here get free gas to there homes where the natural gas pipelines run through there properties.
Guess they aren't that generous here. My buddies house is only about 200 ft. Fr the line and they won't even let him spur off of it.
 
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JTW

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I'm all for better and cleaner alternatives.. but not at the cost of ruining families and lives for this supposed clean energy. It's just like the smug assholes with thos first Prius's.. how much pollution comes from the batteries that power them? Where do they think the electric comes from that they plug into at night? I'm not willing to pay more for "clean" energy. Some people just don't get there is a LOT of marketing magic going into green!
 
Montecresto

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I'm not skilled enough to find the article but the Obama administration researched this a few years ago and determined the pipeline while not their choice would be better on the environment long term than the pollution created from trucking and train cars to get the oil down here. One way or another, we are getting it down here...
You're right it's going to come down here. The United States now exports refined goods because we are producing more gasoline and other refineries than we consume. So the risks involved aren't going to be to our national needs so much as our corporate needs. At some point we will put our environment first, or our environment will will not sustain us.
 
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Montecresto

Montecresto

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No energy is "clean" but some is cleaner than others. Whether humans have been able to exactly measure the amount of natural gas, oil or coal deposits that exists has nothing to do with the fact that the earths size is what it is and there's a bottom to those three barrels. Whether we reach the bottom of those barrels first or die trying is irrelevant to the intellectual question of whether or not we should be working towards an alternative.
 
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No energy is "clean" but some is cleaner than others. Whether humans have been able to exactly measure the amount of natural gas, oil or coal deposits that exists has nothing to do with the fact that the earths size is what it is and there's a bottom to those three barrels. Whether we reach the bottom of those barrels first or die trying is irrelevant to the intellectual question of whether or not we should be working towards an alternative.
Ok.. let's say we have 150 years left. Think of the technology and advancements that have been made in the last 50, 100, 150 years? You don't have to cram and force s*** upon people if the idea is good enough OR more cost effective based on its own merits! Right now, technology is not where it needs to be to support the shift away from fossil fuels. There's no reason to force "green" upon people now and make the general public foot the bill for what is idealism! Henry Ford had an idea.. he built the model T and people saw its worth. They bought them not because they were forced to by government manipulation, but free choice! Better alternaitives will come and I'll embrace them when they're BETTER both in cost and performance! But to force coal fired plants to shut down and oil and gas to be labeled as the devil, and "green" alternaitives to be government mandated all in the name of this "clean" push, while ruining and devistating entire communities. Well, that all sounds a lot to me like there are powers at be creating a new scheme for getting rich. You don't have to force more affordable and better products onto people. To claim to be such an independent and Libertarian you sure do paint yourself into a liberal corner.
Oh, and that corporate greed you talk about... well, how many real peoples retirements, their 401k's and pensions do you think are dependent upon that "greed"? You get in your car and you drive all over the country, you go watch football or go to the NASCAR races and then preach about how it's more intellectual to look for alternatives to fossil fuels?? I call bulls***! That's more hypocritical liberal word vomit! It's patting yourself on the back for saving the earth all while consuming more and more.
 
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Eltobgi

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Gentlemen, there is only one question you really need to ask yourselves, "Do I want the future generations of my family to have a better, safer, healthier world than I currently have?" It all comes down to sacrifice! We can choose to invest as a society in cleaner more environmentally friendly energy which lessens our dependency on foreign oil (our sacrifice possibly resulting in higher gas prices) or we continue to behave as we have been and our children & our children's children will pay with their quality of life and ultimately their health!
We can take this debate in a lot of directions but their is really only one which matters...The wellbeing & future of our families!
 
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Ems-Cam

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Gentlemen, there is only one question you really need to ask yourselves, "Do I want the future generations of my family to have a better, safer, healthier world than I currently have?" It all comes down to sacrifice! We can choose to invest as a society in cleaner more environmentally friendly energy which lessens our dependency on foreign oil (our sacrifice possibly resulting in higher gas prices) or we continue to behave as we have been and our children & our children's children will pay with their quality of life and ultimately their health!
We can take this debate in a lot of directions but their is really only one which matters...The wellbeing & future of our families!

I could not agree more. Its my opinion that with the speed at which technology is advancing, by starting now we can find a solution that will meet and exceed our energy thirst by the time fossil fuels are done and in the meantime find ways to be more efficient and reduce emissions while getting there.
I am ok with our carbon tax provided its properly used for that and not just a cash cow for our government.
 
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Montecresto

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Gentlemen, there is only one question you really need to ask yourselves, "Do I want the future generations of my family to have a better, safer, healthier world than I currently have?" It all comes down to sacrifice! We can choose to invest as a society in cleaner more environmentally friendly energy which lessens our dependency on foreign oil (our sacrifice possibly resulting in higher gas prices) or we continue to behave as we have been and our children & our children's children will pay with their quality of life and ultimately their health!
We can take this debate in a lot of directions but their is really only one which matters...The wellbeing & future of our families!
Well indeed, that's what I'm saying, and nothing has to be forced upon anyone. Humanity would gladly choose an alternative that's clean and renewable if it's made available to them. It's hard to incentivize the effort and resources to pursue that though when such fortunes are being made on the fossil fuel industry.
 
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Montecresto

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Here is a concept that will pay for itself in time...
Off Grid Box
That's a very nice package, evidence that advancements are being made. Nothing of the sort was available when I built my passive solar house 21 years ago. So I have my photovoltaic array on the roof of the house and three cisterns on the back of the garage that collect 4,500 gallons of water from the 45"-50" of average rainfall a year.
 
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swsebek

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Well indeed, that's what I'm saying, and nothing has to be forced upon anyone. Humanity would gladly choose an alternative that's clean and renewable if it's made available to them. It's hard to incentivize the effort and resources to pursue that though when such fortunes are being made on the fossil fuel industry.
Holy crap I actually agree with most of what's being said on this post.And all have had great opinions.I stayed out of this one because I'm against the Native Americans being further disrupted.Im pissed that we didn't take over the oil fields in Iraq and Afghanistan.We could have done so easily.But getting back to the point.The fact of the matter is technology is lacking to make alternative energy sources to keep up with demand. Oil is here and it's practical at this point.These SXS' won't run on water or wind yet so let's be safer on how and where we get our fuel.Our children and more so our kids children will really have the burden of this.In my state of pa they have a gas well every where I turn.I ride to several from my house and it concerns me for a few reasons.1 the community does not get s*** for the inconvenience of them going up and our taxes don't come down. It's under us we will be the ones to suffer if it implodes around us. We Should quit trying to save these 3rd world crap hole country's and harvest their crude and bring it home while we rebuild their community's. And leave our reserves where they are at.you can only suck the life out of one planet so much before it caves in.I know people would protest it but I don't care.About time we flex our military and conquer.Look what happened with Korean war,Vietnam,gulf war, Iraq war, useless lives and loved ones gone for nothing. Accomplished squat but debt our great grandkids will inherit.Grow some balls USA and conquer.
 
AlR

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Thanks for your opinion, please never hesitate, I especially appreciate your cantor. Getting oil from the Middle East means continued wars. The only other thing I would add is that most of the people that oppose these pipelines oppose the continued dependence upon fossil fuels to provide our energy needs to begin with (myself included) and prefer that we'd invest properly in R&D to seriously address alternatives.

I don't like glibly calling oil sands 'dirty' and I agree that major R&D in alternate energy is indicated. Until tech liberates us from oil, we (Canada & the USA) need to be self-reliant and eliminate any dependence on foreign oil.

I'd rather post about my P5.
AI
 
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Montecresto

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I don't like glibly calling oil sands 'dirty' and I agree that major R&D in alternate energy is indicated. Until tech liberates us from oil, we (Canada & the USA) need to be self-reliant and eliminate any dependence on foreign oil.

I'd rather post about my P5.
AI
You have ample opportunities to post about your P5, just not in this forum. :) It's simple, the tech is lacking because the effort is lacking. It's hard to get people motivated to do something new when they are making so much money on the old.;) Btw Al, please don't take personal offense to the tar sands oil being referred to as dirty. I'm not picking on Canada or Canadian oil. All fossil fuels, wherever they may be found on the planet are dirty. From the time they are first touched, through transport, refining and burning them, dirty, caustic and polluting. As stated earlier, I'm happy to pay at the pump today for R&D that moves us away from fossil fuel tomorrow.
 
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AlR

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You have ample opportunities to post about your P5, just not in this forum. :) It's simple, the tech is lacking because the effort is lacking. It's hard to get people motivated to do something new when they are making so much money on the old.;) Btw Al, please don't take personal offense to the tar sands oil being referred to as dirty. I'm not picking on Canada or Canadian oil. All fossil fuels, wherever they may be found on the planet are dirty. From the time they are first touched, through transport, refining and burning them, dirty, caustic and polluting. As stated earlier, I'm happy to pay at the pump today for R&D that moves us away from fossil fuel tomorrow.
And I'm doing my part! Assisting two brilliant nieces through school. Both working to be engineers and both interested in clean tech.
 
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Eltobgi

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We have the technology to end our dependency! Wind, Solar, Geothermal, & Hydro just to name a few! We have to effectively and efficiently use our resources while sparing no expense to protect our environment! Corporate greed leads to cutting corners to maximize profits for corporate shareholders! The majority of those profits end up in the hands of a few, not spread among the masses as some suggest! The wealth disparity continues as is evidenced by a shrinking middle class! Ultimately Big Oil uses its financial strength to diminish the worlds attempts & desire for clean low cost energy! Keep in mind...roughly half of the oil produced in country is exported to other countries not stored to support lower cost to the citizens of the USA! This is about one thing Big Oil, and when Big Oil can censor entities like the EPA we all lose! History has shown this is true!
 
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Eltobgi

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And I'm doing my part! Assisting two brilliant nieces through school. Both working to be engineers and both interested in clean tech.
Awesome!
 
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