P1000 New Springs on Your Fox Shocks

[P1K5Dave]

The Fox 2.0's are a big improvement over the standard Pioneer shocks. They come standard on an LE. If you have a base or a deluxe model, you have a lot to gain in ride quality by upgrading. Of course, you also have several alternatives, such as Walker Evans, Elka, etc.

This thread deals specifically with the Fox 2.0's that are OEM accessories for the Honda Pioneer 1000. They are also known as QS-3, named for the three ride firmness settings at the top of the reservoir.

While the QS-3's are a vast improvement over the standard Honda shocks, many on this forum have found that they can be improved further by removing the standard progressive rate springs and replacing them with a single rate aftermarket spring.

I have decided to go in this direction myself. Along the way I've learned a lot of things about shocks, so I'll put what I've learned here that's relevant to this upgrade, then I'll show how I did the upgrade, and review the benefits when I'm done.

 

[Admin]

 

[P1K5Dave]

So what's all this about spring rates, and progressive vs. single rate?

A spring rate is expressed in pounds required to collapse a spring one inch. So if you have two 350 lb springs, and you loaded 350 lbs directly over them, the vehicle would sag 1/2". If you loaded 700 lbs on them, you'd sag 1".

A progressive rate spring has two levels of firmness built into the spring. For example, the Pioneer 1000-5 QS-3's have the following rates:

Rear: 185/350
Front: 252/350

This means that on the rear, for the initial travel, the spring compresses at the rate of 1" per 185 lbs. Once that (upper) portion of the spring loads up, the lower portion of the spring takes over and you move into 350 lbs.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Here is why I immediately became interested in going to single rate springs after installing the QS-3 shocks on my Pioneer 1000-5:

With coil-over shocks, you can adjust your preload. Preloading allows you to dial in your spring to optimize ride quality, and it also allows you to change the ride height of the vehicle.

Prior to installing my QS-3's, my machine had a bracket lift, stock shocks, and forward a-arms. I removed the bracket lift and put in 3" arched and extended a-arms (You can read all about that here.) With the QS-3 shocks, I actually lost ground clearance in the rear compared to the previous setup with my initial preload settings. I did eventually preload them even further to recover some rear clearance (more on that later) but this is the result:

See the top of the shock, how the coils are completely collapsed? That's the entire 185 lb range of my progressive spring, rendered useless. I'm essentially riding on a 350 lb spring that's shorter than it needs to be because it's got 2-3" of solid surface above it.

 

[P1K5Dave]

The front progressive springs aren't quite as big of a problem, as you can see here. With all the preload I wanted on them, they're at least not coil-bound at the top. Remember, they're 252/300 lb springs, so the 252 end is holding up a little better under preload.

But, as I read from the great contributors to this great forum, I stand to benefit in ride quality by replacing them with a softer single rate spring. So they're going away as well...

 

[P1K5Dave]

More on preload:

If you read around, you find that there is a generally accepted "sweet spot" for setting up a coil-over shock. The figure is 30% sag.

The idea is that one third of a shock's travel is bearing the weight of the vehicle and its passengers (and is available to extend when the wheel steps down,) while the remaining 2/3 is available to absorb shock.

The first thing you need to know, then, is the full travel length of the shock. I read that the QS-3's have 6.1" of total travel. So the sweet spot on this shock is for apx. 2" of sag.

Here's how you measure and adjust to get proper preload:

With everything put together, raise the vehicle until the tire comes off the ground. This is "full droop." At full droop, measure the length of the shock. Now put the vehicle back down (you need to run it around for a bit so the shocks relax and settle in) and load it up as you typically drive. For me, that was all my typical supplies in the back and the two people most commonly riding around - me and Jimbo. Now measure the shock length again.

You're looking for your second measurement to be apx 2" shorter than the first. If, for example, your shock sagged 2.5", you would add preload to the spring so that when loaded and measured again, it would only sag 2".

That sets your baseline for proper preload. From there, you can preload a little more if you want your machine to ride higher, or vice-versa. You have some range to work with here, the 2" number just gives you a benchmark.

When adding preload, lift the vehicle so the tire is off the ground, and turn the preload nut down. This will relieve pressure from the spring, making it easier to turn.

 

[P1K5Dave]

You express the amount of preload added by how far the compression ring was turned down to load up the spring. You'll commonly hear people say they added one inch of preload, or 1.25 inches.

There are a number of ways to express this ( one inch from what?)

I measure mine like this - using a socket between the locking nut and the step at the top of the shock body. That way, I can measure the diameter of the socket with calipers and know that number, and I can use the socket to make sure both shocks are symmetrical.

My rear shocks currently have .810" of preload on them - more on that later.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Now, on from the ideas to the what to buy and how to do it stuff.

To replace your progressive rate springs with single rate, you'll need 14" springs (P1000 5-seater.) On the front, those springs will be 2.5" inside diameter. On the rear, you'll need to go with 3" ID springs, unless you want to get rid of the plastic mud guard in there - then you can use 2.5" ID back there as well.

The spring weight will be your choice. What I'm seeing here is that most of the guys like to run 250 lb springs on the front, and 275-350 lb springs on the back, depending on how much they haul around and how they like their ride.

I chose to go with 250 lb 2.5" diameter on the front and 300 lb 3" diameter in the rear.

In spring lingo, these are referred to as:
2.5 x 14 x 250
3.0 x 14 x 300

I have found a surprisingly low number of suppliers out there for springs. Summit Racing has a great selection and low prices on the 2.5" ID springs (and free shipping over some amount) but they're price nearly doubles on the 3" ID springs, leading many to consider ditching the mud guard.

Daves Offroad Supply is a little more expensive on the 2.5's, but not nearly as bad on the 3's. I had grown fond of the red springs with my white machine with white a-arms, and Summit springs only come in silver or blue, if I recall correctly. Dave's had red ones, I could get 3" for the rear, and overall paid about $20 more with shipping and everything than I would have paid from Summit.

Anyone finding more sources, add them here for other shoppers!

 

[301]

Summit also carries black QA1 springs. I’m mounting them right now.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Let's change a spring!

The first thing you'll need to do is remove your shock from the machine and take all of the preload off it. That is to say, you'll loosen the preload nuts until they're backed off all the way to the top of the shock. This will make it much easier to compress the spring for removal.

Even with preload completely backed off, the QS-3's don't just come apart like some shocks. The spring will need to be compressed in order to remove the lower seat.

There are a number of ways to do this, some MUCH, MUCH better than others. If you have access to the right tools, some of which are quite expensive, you can do this a lot easier. Me? I went with what I had and followed the image posted by @Remington in his build thread:

You run a bolt through the top of the shock, thread two ratchet straps through the spring down to near the bottom, and back up to the bolt. Then you can go click by click, from one ratchet to the other, to compress the spring and give you room to remove the seat. In Remi's pic, he's compressing his new spring for re-assembly, but you get the idea how to run the straps.

 

[P1K5Dave]

DANGER - DANGER!​

Working with springs can be dangerous, so if you're going to undertake the following procedure BE CAREFUL! Wear safety glasses in case anything goes flying. Keep your fingers away from any pinch points. If you're not comfortable with this, don't do it. Take your shocks to someone with the proper equipment. All other legal mumbo-jumbo can be read in a 300 page document I'll send you if you need it, but it basically says "do this at your own risk, I'm not to blame if you screw up."

Now that we got that out of the way, I'll proceed...

Here's my ratchet straps all hooked up and ready to go:

I clicked them up until the base of the spring could be easily removed. I pulled the base out with pliers, because there's no way I want my fingers in there if the straps gave out. Over cautious? Probably. Springs are not to be messed with...

Now you can remove pressure from your straps. With most ratchet straps, this involves a big scary BANG when your let it go. It won't be too bad, as there's still one strap holding when you pop the other one. Thread your straps back out and you can remove your mud guard, your spring, and the plastic bearing at the top:

 

[P1K5Dave]

Here's my old spring and new spring side by side. The original Fox spring is about an inch taller

 

[P1K5Dave]

Now's the time to get those threads all cleaned up, and put a nice fine coat of anti-seize on them to protect them from galling down the road. I like to use a brush and paint it on finely, whereas @DDDonkey likes to slather that stuff on like Jerkins. (Don't watch his video, it's a bit disturbing...)

Go ahead and coat more of it than you think you'll use, so no matter where you adjust it'll be there...

 

[P1K5Dave]

Alright! Preload nuts all the way up, plastic bearing back on, then spring, mud guard, and ratchet strap it back up to put the base back in.

I found it nice to sit it in the vise before popping the straps, to keep the base centered.

 

[P1K5Dave]

A newly upgraded Fox 2.0 QS-3, ready to install. Now you can go back to all that stuff about sag, preloading, and ride height.

Oh, btw, you can see that the eyes are misaligned. Just bolt the top one into the machine, and put a large crescent wrench or something on the lower eye to twist it back into alignment.

I got my rear ones done last night. I screwed up and ordered the wrong front springs, so those will be installed next week when I get the correct ones.

I was immediately happy with the preload settings, and the fact that my spring was no longer compressed. More on the preload in a moment...

Anyway, I got to take the machine for a ride with the new rear springs and the standard Fox progressive springs on the front. I could tell the difference. The rear end was much smoother than before. It's got a 50 lb softer spring that has its full length. The standard Fox springs rode at the full 350 lbs because the softer rate was deleted due to compression, as mentioned earlier.

Once I get the front ones in, I expect to really feel the difference, especially on some of the whoops around here. I'll report back on that.

 

[P1K5Dave]

More on preloading before and after my new springs...

You can read the full dilemma over on my Lift and Shock Upgrade thread, but here's the gist of it:

When I bought the machine used it had stock shocks, a Highlifter bracket kit, and Highlifter forward a-arms. I deleted the bracket kit and put in a Texas Tough Customs full 3" lift arm kit, and new shocks. At first, I went with the 814 trail series shocks, but quickly changed out of those (more on that over there in the lift build thread...)

So, before I removed anything, I did measurements and a clear-the-bucket test. The back of my machine would clear a bucket by about an inch. After I installed my huge upgrade in suspension and preloaded my new Fox Shocks to .505" (measured by the socket, as mentioned above) the rear end would not even clear a bucket. I was over an inch lower in the back.

I started adding preload to the rear shocks, and it was getting really tight doing so. On the front shocks, I can turn the nut and spring all together by hand with the weight off the tire. On the back, I was having to tap the ring around with a hammer and an old screwdriver, and I was getting nervous about how much pressure it was requiring to get my ride height back.

I wound up running preload up to .866" and got the ride height back up, not quite as high as I wanted it, but as far as I dared go. Weeks ago, I had adjusted my camber on the rear wheels to the height I sat with the 814 shocks, and now with the Fox shocks I was a good bit lower so my camber went far negative (top of the tires tilted in.)

As an aside - adding .310" of preload raised the back end nearly 1.5", just so you know it's not a linear scale thing. Preload works quick.

When I put the new springs on, I figured I'd start out at .866" just for the heck of it, to see how it sat with the new springs. First of all, it wasn't hard to turn it down that far any longer. Not exactly hand-turning easy, but easy and not nerve-wracking. But the result was wild - with .866" of preload, I raised the back of the vehicle about 3-4 inches more than my baseline measurements with the old setup. I didn't measure it exactly, but it was way higher than I'd want it. I was able to lower it down to .810" of preload, and that brought me to my desired height - my camber was back on!

The point is that everything is much more adjustable now, and it's riding better. Can't wait to do the front.

 

[Remington]

Well done sir!

 

[Todd627]

Damn fine write up @P1K5Dave 👍🏼

 

[301]

This certainly showed up at exactly the right time. We’ll done sir, couldn’t have written it better myself even if I had the urge.

 

[P1K5Dave]

When I was learning about this upgrade, I had bookmarked a few threads that had good information on new springs on Fox shocks.

Here's links if you want to read some of the stuff I learned from:

P1000 - Fox Shocks Spring Replacement

I am thinking about replacing the springs on my rear fox shocks. The top of the progressive spring is completely collapsed with just the pre load so I think I need a heavier spring. Does anyone have the info for the stock spring for sure? I have been looking and found 15.5" 187/350 but i am not...

hondasxs.com

P1000m5 - GlockMeisters P1K5 Build Continues

Bought me one of these over the axle bearing greasers..pulled all the hub and greased all 4 wheel bearings....seems to work pretty good. Looking good!

hondasxs.com

P1000 - Fox Shocks LE Spring Upgrade

I have the LE Fox Shocks and want to get stiffer springs for using with 4 adults, spare tire etc. I can't find springs for this model shock, I can only find them for the standard shocks. Where can I get HD springs for the LE Fox Shocks?

hondasxs.com

 

[P1K5Dave]

Also, the P1000 3-seater has different shock specs, I believe in spring length and weight. I'll see if I can dig them up or someone else can chime in.