P500 Possible to gear UP....? Maybe....

[906UP]

I'd really like to gear my little donkey up, not a lot but hear me out.....

I've been doing a little research, pouring over Honda parts lists. The transmission counter shaft and final shaft are the same in the Rancher 420 & Foreman 500.... OK, no suprise....everybody knows that...

Ah ha.....there is a difference, the drive(gears) between the counter shaft & final shaft are the same for the Foreman 5 & P5 at 16/30 for a ratio of 1.875, on the Rancher 420 the drive between the 2 shafts are 25/37 for a ratio of 1.48.

I'm thinking it'd be possible to swap these gears out, it would give an approx 25% overdrive. I think it might be doable with the low gearing we already have. Even with 27" tires I find myself in 4th & 5th most of the time.

2016 Honda Pioneer 500 (SXS500M 2AC) FINAL SHAFT | Babbitts Honda Partshouse
Parts #2 & #3
2016 Honda TRX420FA2 AC FINAL SHAFT | Babbitts Honda Partshouse
Parts #3 & #4.....and maybe #5


Pic below is from a 01 Rancher but it's still the same design.

 

[906UP]

Going to order the parts this week if I get time to get to the dealer, warranty is up in another month.... sounds like a good time for a minor tear down!

 

[DG Rider]

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[NTCPrezJB]

Going to order the parts this week if I get time to get to the dealer, warranty is up in another month.... sounds like a good time for a minor tear down!

I am interested in how it goes for you. Keep us updated sir.

 

[906UP]

I am interested in how it goes for you. Keep us updated sir.

Absolutely..... if it looks like it'll work I'll take pic & write up a "how-to" of sort. Something else I thought about this morning.... need to find where the speed sensor is, has to be in the trans somewhere. As long as it's upstream from the output shaft/final gearing it should be fine....

 

[906UP]

Well...... the speed sensor reads off the countershaft gear, that's a problem. A different number of teeth would cause issues with the ECM..... need to do a bit more research before a trip to the Honda Store

 

[TeamCheap]

Well...... the speed sensor reads off the countershaft gear, that's a problem. A different number of teeth would cause issues with the ECM..... need to do a bit more research before a trip to the Honda Store

So my thoughts on this topic have been :what is the max RPM's before the engine lets loose or more correctly what does honda set the max RPM's at and does each gear reach the same max RPM's or do they have it set to limit speed to 40MPH.

What is the RPM redline in each gear ? I'm guessing honda uses a combination of a max RPM and max MPH.

My thoughts from my initial 4.5 hour ride was it felt labored on the sandy/rutted snowmobile trail we were on and even though I wanted it to go to 50 MPH I feel 40MPH is really the good/right max speed as it sits in stock form.I was mostly in AT mode but I just wanted to ride and not shift on the boring snowmobile trail but on the tight trail it was MT and tons of fun driving through tree's just far enough apart to fit.

I'd like mine to hit 50MPH but before that I'd like a better suspension but realistically I wont fix what is not broken and will enjoy it immensely pretty much the way honda made it.(unless I find a cheap used one to do wild experiments on)

 

[906UP]

This idea of gearing up is a "NO-GO!!" without some electrical trickery, even that is doubtful, Honda has the ECU locked down tight. I didn't even bother to try my old tach, it's obvious there is a limiter on both RPM's and Speed.

It's not that I was trying to turn the P5 into something it wasn't designed for, I would just like it to do an easy 30-35mph on the trail without sounding like it's coming apart. I really like my little donkey but after owning for a year I find myself wishing I would've bought something else.....Wolverine maybe.... I liked the idea of shifting gears instead of a CVT just for something different but after a 11 month test ride I'm done..... I'll be gone most of July for work, that should give me time to decide what's next.

 

[TeamCheap]

This idea of gearing up is a "NO-GO!!" without some electrical trickery, even that is doubtful, Honda has the ECU locked down tight. I didn't even bother to try my old tach, it's obvious there is a limiter on both RPM's and Speed.

It's not that I was trying to turn the P5 into something it wasn't designed for, I would just like it to do an easy 30-35mph on the trail without sounding like it's coming apart. I really like my little donkey but after owning for a year I find myself wishing I would've bought something else.....Wolverine maybe.... I liked the idea of shifting gears instead of a CVT just for something different but after a 11 month test ride I'm done..... I'll be gone most of July for work, that should give me time to decide what's next.

You'd have to route the RPM and MPH signals through a device that would allow altering the signals, I'm thinking along the lines of an adruino or raspberryPI if it would be fast enough to do the job, it really is a task not to mention the whole shift points.

Taller tires along with different gear ratio's in the front/rear diff's would be easier but then there's that 475cc engine cap.

I'm going to look into changing the suspension a bit but the big problem I see is the front diff out drives are just to wide to allow a decent amount of suspension travel.Narrower diffs along with suspension arms lengthened and moved towards the center keeping the 50" width would be a start.

I'm liking the 2018 can-am maverick trail with it's 10"F and 10.5"R suspension, 50" width but the CVT and small cargo space in the back still put the P500 out in front as far as I'm concerned.

It's fun to think about the wild mods but in the end I'll build a few practical things for ours and keep the reliability that honda works so hard to build into their stuff.

 

[906UP]

I posted this in another thread because I was confused, been up since 4am, drove 415 miles today......and I've had a few beers. Anyway, here goes.....

I was thinking about it this morning on my drive to Detroit.....had a lot of time....put 415 miles on the Corolla today....anyway, I wonder if a ECU from a Rancher would work? Get one from a 2015-2018 420 with electric shift..... my only "concern" would be the fuel map but it's only a 55cc difference so I don't think it would be an issue. I'd probably do a few WFO runs with the 500 ECU and take some temp readings on the headpipe as a baseline then do the same after the swap just to see if it's running hotter. Both use the same sensors & fuel injector and I wouldn't be surprised if the fuel map was the same, Honda isn't one to "reinvent the wheel". I started looking for a used one but they were close to the price of new at $154. So it's a $200 gamble.....ecu & gears....to see if it'd work. Hmmmm...... I do have a couple hundred coming back after returning the Silent Rider

 

[Bastardchild]

I posted this in another thread because I was confused, been up since 4am, drove 415 miles today......and I've had a few beers. Anyway, here goes.....

I was thinking about it this morning on my drive to Detroit.....had a lot of time....put 415 miles on the Corolla today....anyway, I wonder if a ECU from a Rancher would work? Get one from a 2015-2018 420 with electric shift..... my only "concern" would be the fuel map but it's only a 55cc difference so I don't think it would be an issue. I'd probably do a few WFO runs with the 500 ECU and take some temp readings on the headpipe as a baseline then do the same after the swap just to see if it's running hotter. Both use the same sensors & fuel injector and I wouldn't be surprised if the fuel map was the same, Honda isn't one to "reinvent the wheel". I started looking for a used one but they were close to the price of new at $154. So it's a $200 gamble.....ecu & gears....to see if it'd work. Hmmmm...... I do have a couple hundred coming back after returning the Silent Rider

My buddy has a performance shop and ive heard him talk about 'reflashing' the ECU on motorcycles, atv's, and utv's before. He does this when he does pipes, cams, nitrous, and all kinds of other mods. I dont know the first thing about reflashing, but if you took the 420 ECU to your local performance shop could they do that for you and set the fuel parameters to where you would want them? Or even your P5 ECU instead of buying the 420 ECU? Im kinda curious myself now

 

[906UP]

My buddy has a performance shop and ive heard him talk about 'reflashing' the ECU on motorcycles, atv's, and utv's before. He does this when he does pipes, cams, nitrous, and all kinds of other mods. I dont know the first thing about reflashing, but if you took the 420 ECU to your local performance shop could they do that for you and set the fuel parameters to where you would want them? Or even your P5 ECU instead of buying the 420 ECU? Im kinda curious myself now

That would be interesting......as far as I know the ATVs & UTVs don't have a flash memory but I could be wrong.

 

[Bastardchild]

That would be interesting......as far as I know the ATVs & UTVs don't have a flash memory but I could be wrong.

I could have misunderstood what he was talking about i guess. Just recently he told me about a Yamaha yxz 1000 that he put a custom exhaust on, cam work, computer reflash, and picked up 40hp on his dyno. 40hp sounds like a lot to gain, but he's a pretty straight forward guy. He lives, eats, and breathes motor building and stuff like that. I will have to ask him some more in depth questions when we go riding again.

 

[906UP]

I could have misunderstood what he was talking about i guess. Just recently he told me about a Yamaha yxz 1000 that he put a custom exhaust on, cam work, computer reflash, and picked up 40hp on his dyno. 40hp sounds like a lot to gain, but he's a pretty straight forward guy. He lives, eats, and breathes motor building and stuff like that. I will have to ask him some more in depth questions when we go riding again.

That makes sense, I should have clarified.....the ecu used on the P5, P7, Foreman, Rancher, etc isn't programmable..... I wouldn't be surprised if the YXZ is programmable but do ask him next time you see him just to be sure

 

[Bastardchild]

That makes sense, I should have clarified.....the ecu used on the P5, P7, Foreman, Rancher, etc isn't programmable..... I wouldn't be surprised if the YXZ is programmable but do ask him next time you see him just to be sure

No problem. Ill let you know what he says.