PPEI Talon 185 RWHP tune

[KenThompson]

I’ve been working with Erik and PPEI for over a year with my Jackson turbo’d talon running the ridiculous stock exhaust. i tested numerous tunes he sent, and they got better every time. I didn’t expect it to be perfect, since this was new territory tuning the talon with the Jackson turbo. I normally run at sea level up to 3000 ft. The only issue I had was going to 5000-6000 ft on our trip to Utah. Once I contacted Erik on it, he sent me a new tune right away that fixed the problem. I had a HMF slip on muff on my talon before the jackson, but because Jackson is in Cal. They don’t run performance exhaust. Erik couldn’t get an HMF exhaust so I sent him mine to test with. The dyno showed no increase in performance with the HMF, w\hat a waste of money! Erik suggested the Trinity system, so I have that now, and the PPEI tune with the 1000 injectors, fuel pump, and new fuel rail to run a return line. Hopefully will get it all installed this week end and do some testing. One thing that does piss me off though, is trying to log runs on the PV3. I start the log and after a short time it locks up. All of the gauges freeze and the log doesn’t save. Has anyone experienced this problem with the PV3, and know how to fix it?

 

[Red500]

That all sounds awesome but I think I have a cure for all the problems it sounds like your having. Buy a P5 go out riding and have fun.

 

[HBarlow]

There's an old hot rodder's line that applies here:

Horsepower costs money - How fast do you want to go?

A new engine will be very pricey.

 

[HondaTech]

I would guess my GMs race car probably makes that or more by now with the same ppei stuff, but with a Graves exhaust.

We'll see next week at the Heartland Challenge how well it does.

 

[HBarlow]

That looks like serious racing.

2024 Heartland Challenge – Heartland Challenge Iowa ATV & UTV/SXS Endurance Race!

Four hours of racing after dark!

Do you go as the team mechanic? Has your GM blown up an engine yet?

 

[HondaTech]

That looks like serious racing.

2024 Heartland Challenge – Heartland Challenge Iowa ATV & UTV/SXS Endurance Race!

Four hours of racing after dark!

Do you go as the team mechanic? Has your GM blown up an engine yet?

I'm the fuel b****. 🤣

We havent "blown" an engine but have damaged a couple.

The 1st was due to stock "glass" piston clearance, cracked 2 stock pistons. Replaced the block and pistons.

The pistons in that engine were incorrect from Hess and swelled, scuffing the cylinder.

Replaced those pistons and blew a head gasket, damaged the head.

Replaced the head and installed the original block with sleeves fitted to correct pistons.

This doesn't include the broken sub trans (now cryoheat treated and polished), the broken Jackson header and turbo mount bracket. Broken motor mount and assorted other issues.

 

[HBarlow]

I'm the fuel b****. 🤣

We havent "blown" an engine but have damaged a couple.

The 1st was due to stock "glass" piston clearance, cracked 2 stock pistons. Replaced the block and pistons.

The pistons in that engine were incorrect from Hess and swelled, scuffing the cylinder.

Replaced those pistons and blew a head gasket, damaged the head.

Replaced the head and installed the original block with sleeves fitted to correct pistons.

This doesn't include the broken sub trans (now cryoheat treated and polished), the broken Jackson header and turbo mount bracket. Broken motor mount and assorted other issues.

Racing sounds very expensive. I think you'd have to be very wealthy, own a Honda dealership, or be the general manager of one to afford it.

All performance engine building technology has been around for 50 years or more but you are probably plowing new ground with an aftermarket turbo installed on a Honda 1000cc twin.

Do the factory crankshaft, piston rods, and bearings hold up pretty well under the added stress?

 

[KenThompson]

There's an old hot rodder's line that applies here:

Horsepower costs money - How fast do you want to go?

A new engine will be very pricey.

Very true, but I don’t plan on buying a new engine. I plan on paying attention to what that engine is doing at all times. Don’t let it run lean, and don’t let it overheat. Pretty much common sense. If it does either, I’m on the phone with Eric at PPEI. He will send me another tune, and we will try it again!

 

[HBarlow]

Very true, but I don’t plan on buying a new engine. I plan on paying attention to what that engine is doing at all times. Don’t let it run lean, and don’t let it overheat. Pretty much common sense. If it does either, I’m on the phone with Eric at PPEI. He will send me another tune, and we will try it again!

Sounds like you know what you're doing and have a tight connection with your engine computer programmer.

 

[HondaTech]

Racing sounds very expensive. I think you'd have to be very wealthy, own a Honda dealership, or be the general manager of one to afford it.

All performance engine building technology has been around for 50 years or more but you are probably plowing new ground with an aftermarket turbo installed on a Honda 1000cc twin.

Do the factory crankshaft, piston rods, and bearings hold up pretty well under the added stress?

The only real issue I think anyone has found after pistons and head studs is the open deck design of the block. The stock pistons will fall apart on the stock Jackson tune if pushed hard.

It's the main weak link when approaching 230ish rwhp. The crank, rods are apparently good for over 300 crank hp, maybe 400hp. But nobody has gotten close to 400 crank hp that I'm aware of.

The fuel system is limited, being non return style, beyond the stock Jackson kit. The fuel pump seems ok so far for us, injectors and a return style system are a must.

Certain 2021 and all 2022 models have a more robust block casting around the mounts, those have broken/cracked on the Proctor cars with the old block.

I dont know of anyone whose changed the camshaft with a turbo yet, or had any head work with a turbo.

With the tuning that a PV3 allows the clutch seems to no be any issue either, since the traction control has been turned off.

Oil Temps will need to be watched, above 240 degrees the ecm pulls timing to save the clutch. We've installed an adapter on the orignal oil cooler location and added a cooler on top of our rear mounted radiator. The PV3 doesn't show oil temp, just voltage so im not sure how much we've dropped, but the clutch is pristine so far.

I'd also suggest a catch can to keep oil from entering the air intake and turbo.

 

[KenThompson]

I have forged wiseco 9:1 pistons. So the reduced compression allows more boost. The PPEI kit includes a high pressure fuel pump, and a fuel rail with a return line. There’s only 1 guy that I have heard of that has had any problems, but I don’t know how much he knew about high performance Talons.

 

[HBarlow]

The only real issue I think anyone has found after pistons and head studs is the open deck design of the block. The stock pistons will fall apart on the stock Jackson tune if pushed hard.

It's the main weak link when approaching 230ish rwhp. The crank, rods are apparently good for over 300 crank hp, maybe 400hp. But nobody has gotten close to 400 crank hp that I'm aware of.

The fuel system is limited, being non return style, beyond the stock Jackson kit. The fuel pump seems ok so far for us, injectors and a return style system are a must.

Certain 2021 and all 2022 models have a more robust block casting around the mounts, those have broken/cracked on the Proctor cars with the old block.

I dont know of anyone whose changed the camshaft with a turbo yet, or had any head work with a turbo.

With the tuning that a PV3 allows the clutch seems to no be any issue either, since the traction control has been turned off.

Oil Temps will need to be watched, above 240 degrees the ecm pulls timing to save the clutch. We've installed an adapter on the orignal oil cooler location and added a cooler on top of our rear mounted radiator. The PV3 doesn't show oil temp, just voltage so im not sure how much we've dropped, but the clutch is pristine so far.

I'd also suggest a catch can to keep oil from entering the air intake and turbo.

That's very interesting. Complimentary of Honda engineering.

You referred to the "clutch" but didn't comment on the DCT. Does the car use factory DCT?

Does anyone manufacture aftermarket pistons capable of handling high boost pressures?

 

[HondaTech]

That's very interesting. Complimentary of Honda engineering.

You referred to the "clutch" but didn't comment on the DCT. Does the car use factory DCT?

Does anyone manufacture aftermarket pistons capable of handling high boost pressures?

We have not modified any of the factory transmission system mechanically.

PPEI does tune the ecm for shifting and other parameters. But the parts are all stock.

There are a couple people making pistons for turbo applications. CP is who we're using at the moment. Carillo is also making rods now as well.

 

[HBarlow]

That says a lot for the Honda DCT. Amazing to me that it can tolerate 185 hp in a racing environment.

 

[KenThompson]

We have not modified any of the factory transmission system mechanically.

PPEI does tune the ecm for shifting and other parameters. But the parts are all stock.

There are a couple people making pistons for turbo applications. CP is who we're using at the moment. Carillo is also making rods now as well.

I see a lot of different pistons for the talon. Fancy cuts and coatings that increase the cost tremendously! I have built numerous high performance engines over the years. As long as the piston clearances and fuel mixtures are correct, I have never had any problems.

 

[HondaTech]

I see a lot of different pistons for the talon. Fancy cuts and coatings that increase the cost tremendously! I have built numerous high performance engines over the years. As long as the piston clearances and fuel mixtures are correct, I have never had any problems.

I'm sure there are more than I'm aware of. Thr first set we were using weren't meant for turbo applications and swelled too much and scuffed the cylinder. But that just goes to show you not everyone selling stuff knows what the hell their doing.

 

[KenThompson]

I'm sure there are more than I'm aware of. Thr first set we were using weren't meant for turbo applications and swelled too much and scuffed the cylinder. But that just goes to show you not everyone selling stuff knows what the hell their doing.

It sounds like the clearances were set to tight to me

 

[KenThompson]

Forged pistons are always set with more clearance than a cast piston. Maybe that’s where they went wrong when they honed, or board the cylinder for the pistons.

 

[HondaTech]

Forged pistons are always set with more clearance than a cast piston. Maybe that’s where they went wrong when they honed, or board the cylinder for the pistons.

Several other racers had the same issue. Someone didn't account for the amount of swelling when specing the piston to cylinder clearance.

The new ones from CP we got have been much better so far.

 

[HBarlow]

Yeah, race engines are always set up with larger clearances than a standard engine.