P500 Who wants a diff. Lock ?

[JWB]

Here is my take on this... p5 only has a 12.8ft turning radius and uses a 24 to 26 inch tire diameter. we know its 50inch to outside of wheel but we use the wheel centerline as width to make it equal as this is what we drive on most of time. So minus 8inch tire width off the 50in total. That leaves 42 inch.
Now the theory part... 26in dia tire travels 81.64 inch (26 x 3.14) which means in a 12.8ft (12.8ft =153.6 inches)turn it rotates only (153.6/81.64) = 1.89times.
now divide the distance across 42/2 =21 and subtract this off the total. 153.6 minus 21= 132.6. (132.6/81.64)= 1.64 so difference between both wheels in a 12.8ft turning radius would be 1.89-1.64= .25

What I am saying is the outside wheel only has to turn slightly faster than the inside wheel given the wheel width and crappy turn radius (like roughly a quarter turn more in a 12.8ft radius ) this leaves me to believe a locker may actually have trouble coupling and uncoupling with such a small amount of wheel travel. And I would also bet this is why no one has an aftermarket locker for a 50inch SXS or atv for that matter.
I would also speculate that there is an engineering issue to overcome before a perfect locker will be available. (I hope they do make one as I too was on this list and would have liked to try it out) This is why I just made my own spool.
*Don't quote me on the math but hopefully you get my point.

Totally get the point! The math don't lie! A quarter turn is virtually irrelevant! Thanks again @hondasrule!

 

[Admin]

 

[JWB]

My thought is that the locker will engage the instant there is presure applied to the ring gear (achieved only in 4x4). The force of the cross pin against the two center halves will push them outward , locking them to the two outer pieces , locking the two axles together.

I don't see how the turning radius , wheel dia. Or anything else has to do with whether or not it will lock or unlock!

I am looking for education , so correct me if I'm wrong !

I think, after seeing the math, that the point is whether it unlocks may be damn near irrelevant. I'm starting to wonder if that's why we don't have a unit from Torqmasters yet....but I'm always the skeptic...

 

[Livinthelegend]

My big thing is I need the front to only be locked when in 4x4. When in 2x4 I want just the back spinning. As long as that happens, I am a happy camper.

 

[hondasrule]

My thought is that the locker will engage the instant there is presure applied to the ring gear (achieved only in 4x4). The force of the cross pin against the two center halves will push them outward , locking them to the two outer pieces , locking the two axles together.

I don't see how the turning radius , wheel dia. Or anything else has to do with whether or not it will lock or unlock!

I am looking for education , so correct me if I'm wrong !

I will try to explain in more detail the best I can.
The center halves do not both open at the same time.one side will always have pressure which will spin the carrier even when driveshaft is not powered. the way it unlocks is by one side turning faster and releasing the force created on the pin (left side or right side of locker)it uncouples or slips in whichever direction of least resistance, there will always be force on the pin from one side or the other. now when you apply power that is greater than the wheel speed from both sides.it will lock hard because the carrier forces the pin against both halves. again when you reduce the power and make a turn the wheel that has the less speed allows only one half to reduce pressure on the pin and then uncouples and slips.
Here is where it gets messy
the turning radius and wheel diameter are important because the locker can only slip when it senses a change in wheel speed from left to right. so if the wheel speed only change slightly or barely as you can imagine driving on a most trails it will be locked 90% of the time.
it would only unlock if you could change the wheel speed enough for it to uncouple. in the p5 that would likely be almost 90deg turn to get the wheel speed quick enough to reduce force and let it slip.
I believe that's why they work in the wider machines yu can imagine how much faster the wheel speed changes with the wheels so wide apart and the big diameter wheels.

 

[Tommyo]

Hello everyone! I have machined a locking spool for P500. Just installed it for drivability and durability testing. It does NOT hop the wheels at all but I did notice the steering has a slightly heavier feel to it at very low speed tight turns. I should mention I do have power steering so this helps greatly. At higher speeds above 15km cant tell any difference at all. I am refining my 3rd proto type for testing/fitment and will bring it to market if all goes well... here is a few pics to check out.

View attachment 67631 View attachment 67632 View attachment 67633 View attachment 67634

How do I sign up??
I know I don't post much on here so you don't know me from Adams house cat but we are very active mud riders and very active on several FB groups. My wife Amy is the pioneer driver and to say it lightly, she gives hers hell. Hers is pretty modded. She's running 32" terms, 69% gear reduction, outkast a arms and a small bracket lift and a bunch of other stuff not associated with the drivetrain. I'm her mechanic and I know my way around an atv and SxS pretty well, so I wouldn't have any issues yanking out the front diff. Have you gotten them into production yet? Do you have a price? You can google my name Tommy ONeal, and see that we are legit(we own and operate a dog kennel). That's what pays the bills but our passion is mudding!!!

 

[Livinthelegend]

How do I sign up??
I know I don't post much on here so you don't know me from Adams house cat but we are very active mud riders and very active on several FB groups. My wife Amy is the pioneer driver and to say it lightly, she gives hers hell. Hers is pretty modded. She's running 32" terms, 69% gear reduction, outkast a arms and a small bracket lift and a bunch of other stuff not associated with the drivetrain. I'm her mechanic and I know my way around an atv and SxS pretty well, so I wouldn't have any issues yanking out the front diff. Have you gotten them into production yet? Do you have a price? You can google my name Tommy ONeal, and see that we are legit(we own and operate a dog kennel). That's what pays the bills but our passion is mudding!!!

View attachment 68685

I can vouch for Tommy. He would be a great person to really put your spool through the paces.

 

[Chooglin]

I will post this again , just in case someone missed it..........it's worth watching NOTE the elongated cross pin hole !

 

[JWB]

My thought is that the locker will engage the instant there is presure applied to the ring gear (achieved only in 4x4). The force of the cross pin against the two center halves will push them outward , locking them to the two outer pieces , locking the two axles together.

I don't see how the turning radius , wheel dia. Or anything else has to do with whether or not it will lock or unlock!

I am looking for education , so correct me if I'm wrong !

You've got it absolutely right as far as actuation under acceleration load. I think you might be missing an important aspect: It will also lock under braking or engine braking- it's one of the questions I asked Torqmasters about. As she said in the email I posted, the unit never really 'unlocks' but it will allow one wheel to over-run the other **as long as there is no load applied during that 'over-run' situation** So, even in 2wd, if you hit the brake and one wheel starts to slip- it locks. She (Cora) also assumed that the P500 has a CVT that will actually 'coast' - I did correct her on that. Being that our machines never 'coast' there is always torque being applied, unless you are very carefully maintaining speed, otherwise, there is either acceleration load, or deceleration load being applied to the diff. in 4wd...... 2wd is the only time the diff would see it as a 'coasting' or no load situation. But here's the thing, as Hondasrule so brilliantly pointed out: If the front wheels only need to differentiate by 1/4 of a turn in complete steering locked full round in a circle turn, that's really only 1/8 of a wheel revolution when shared between the two wheels! It's really nothing! There is easily that much torsional 'spring' in the axles, and how often do you drive in a complete circle on dry pavement? So, all this time I've been caught up in the 'definitely don't want a spool' mentality, it never occurred to me to actually do the math for this particular machine! Kudos to @hondasrule!

 

[Chooglin]

Thanks for all the input , I really do appreciate it, can't wait till they release the darn thing !

 

[Livinthelegend]

Thanks for all the input , I really do appreciate it, can't wait till they release the darn thing !

@jay_man81 has some updates he can give on the Torque Master locker.

 

[Tommyo]

I can vouch for Tommy. He would be a great person to really put your spool through the paces.

Err, thanks Legend, I think. Lol.
In my defense, Amy's the one that's rough on it. She has that mentality that she is either gonna make it through, break something or blow it up trying!! Lol

 

[trigger]

I don't know the first thing about this sh** but I've been following it. Am I understanding it correctly that with a spool the front end will never free wheel independently...locked axle right? Even in 2 wd?

 

[Livinthelegend]

I don't know the first thing about this sh** but I've been following it. Am I understanding it correctly that with a spool the front end will never free wheel independently...locked axle right? Even in 2 wd?

I asked that question and was told 2x4 would act the same as normal. Always locked once in 4x4.

 

[lee]

Too much speculation.
Yes you heard from someone at T/M but where you talking to the engineer and getting the tech low down or the sales pitch from the receptionist?
I like to talk to the development engineer myself, don't have the time of day for a sales engineer much less the sales Rep.
Going to have to wait and see untill we have the side by side comparison.

Bottom line I suspect that thouse who have learner to drive there open diff for all its worth will learn the ins and outs of the T/M locker.
Thouse that just want a panacea to fix Honda's 'problem' will be better off with a p1k-LE.

 

[Wallace]

If I had manual locking hubs, a spool would be great. Not a fan of full time locked front.

 

[Russ989]

I’ve been waiting for a front diff lock but I think I’m just going to get a good winch and call it good. The anticipation is too much for me, I can’t take it any longer lol!

 

[Wallace]

I don't know the first thing about this sh** but I've been following it. Am I understanding it correctly that with a spool the front end will never free wheel independently...locked axle right? Even in 2 wd?

Yes.

 

[Bastardchild]

I would also like your opinion on how the spool acts on pavement In 2wd !

Yes im interested in how it acts in 2wd also.

 

[Bastardchild]

Here is my take on this... p5 only has a 12.8ft turning radius and uses a 24 to 26 inch tire diameter. we know its 50inch to outside of wheel but we use the wheel centerline as width to make it equal as this is what we drive on most of time. So minus 8inch tire width off the 50in total. That leaves 42 inch.
Now the theory part... 26in dia tire travels 81.64 inch (26 x 3.14) which means in a 12.8ft (12.8ft =153.6 inches)turn it rotates only (153.6/81.64) = 1.89times.
now divide the distance across 42/2 =21 and subtract this off the total. 153.6 minus 21= 132.6. (132.6/81.64)= 1.64 so difference between both wheels in a 12.8ft turning radius would be 1.89-1.64= .25

What I am saying is the outside wheel only has to turn slightly faster than the inside wheel given the wheel width and crappy turn radius (like roughly a quarter turn more in a 12.8ft radius ) this leaves me to believe a locker may actually have trouble coupling and uncoupling with such a small amount of wheel travel. And I would also bet this is why no one has an aftermarket locker for a 50inch SXS or atv for that matter.
I would also speculate that there is an engineering issue to overcome before a perfect locker will be available. (I hope they do make one as I too was on this list and would have liked to try it out) This is why I just made my own spool.
*Don't quote me on the math but hopefully you get my point.

Reading that, and re-reading that, and re-reading that again, made me realize how dumb i am. Lol

 

[Livinthelegend]

Reading that, and re-reading that, and re-reading that again, made me realize how dumb i am. Lol

I am right there with you. That is why I am excited to wait and see the results when we start getting the results as the first ones to get it have them installed.