2022 gear ratio update info?

[HondaTech]

My redneck intuition says there is a pump on the transmission side that sends the subtrans oil through the input shaft and into the oil passages of the case. If there wasn't, why would the input shaft be hollow and why would there be oil passages in the case. I believe those small holes in the shaft are used to lubricate the gears on the input shaft that don't necessarily spin at the same speed depending on what gear the selector is in. Can't those just be redrilled once the cromo tube is pressed in? I'll know more later tonight when I disassemble the entire subtrans so I can have my buddy do "stuff" to the internals before I get it all micro polished.

I can confirm no oil is pumped into the sub transmission. Between the sub trans and engine is a damper that would block any oil flow.

There are passages in the case that let oil flows out of the shafts into the bearing cavity. I assume the holes in the shaft just let oil drain or vent.

We debated drilling the shaft after pressing a inner piece in, but that's where we've broken both our shafts, right at the holes.

 

[Admin]

 

[CID]

I can confirm no oil is pumped into the sub transmission. Between the sub trans and engine is a damper that would block any oil flow.

...

So the entire sub transmission is lubed by 'splash' only? Like a 5 spd. manual in a car? 🤔

 

[HondaTech]

So the entire sub transmission is lubed by 'splash' only? Like a 5 spd. manual in a car? 🤔

Pretty much, since you only drain it through the separate plug. I tried looking at the parts fiche to find what seals the engine from the sub trans. I believe the countershaft has a seal on it that keeps the oil from transferring.

We're thinking about pumping oil through a cooler to keep the sub trans oil temp down and see if that helps. Everybody that's racing seems to break the shaft around 1000 miles.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I can confirm no oil is pumped into the sub transmission. Between the sub trans and engine is a damper that would block any oil flow.

There are passages in the case that let oil flows out of the shafts into the bearing cavity. I assume the holes in the shaft just let oil drain or vent.

We debated drilling the shaft after pressing a inner piece in, but that's where we've broken both our shafts, right at the holes.

That torque damper is hollow and heavy, i intend to do something about that.....

The imput shaft is hollow, I don't have the engine here to see what's going on on that side of things but I guarantee you gear oil is somehow pumped through it, how else would oil get up inside there to lubricate the needle bearings the pin holes in the shaft are there for?.....

And what's with the oil passages in the cover that all stem from the end of the input shaft bearing?.....

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

@HondaTech, what makes you think it will crack again with a cromo tube pressed in with redrilled holes? If you make the ID thicker is shoud take care of bending forces and if it's tig welded on both ends it should help with twisting forces. I haven't snapped one yet or seen a picture of a broken one so I can't speak about what happens to cause the shafts to snap or where the break is occurring on the shafts and at which oil hole.

 

[HondaTech]

@HondaTech, what makes you think it will crack again with a cromo tube pressed in with redrilled holes? If you make the ID thicker is shoud take care of bending forces and if it's tig welded on both ends it should help with twisting forces. I haven't snapped one yet or seen a picture of a broken one so I can't speak about what happens to cause the shafts to snap or where the break is occurring on the shafts and at which oil hole.

Here's our 2
1 is the original from factory and the other is Cryoheat treated. Was ran for a few miles in the spare sub trans we had before having the whole sub trans treated.

 

[HondaTech]

That torque damper is hollow and heavy, i intend to do something about that.....
View attachment 368293
View attachment 368294

The imput shaft is hollow, I don't have the engine here to see what's going on on that side of things but I guarantee you gear oil is somehow pumped through it, how else would oil get up inside there to lubricate the needle bearings the pin holes in the shaft are there for?.....
View attachment 368295

And what's with the oil passages in the cover that all stem from the end of the input shaft bearing?.....
View attachment 368297
View attachment 368298

You would think by the looks of the passages but it doesn't make any sense if oil is pumped from the engine if you can drain just the sub trans and not have to touch the oil in the engine to refill.

Also we run Honda Moly oil in ours and customers and have never had a clutch slipping problem.

Also look at the lubrication diagram, it doesn't show oil being fed through the countershaft into the sub trans. I'm pretty sure that's a seal at the end to seal the oil flow off.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Here's our 2
1 is the original from factory and the other is Cryoheat treated. Was ran for a few miles in the spare sub trans we had before having the whole sub trans treated.

View attachment 368302

Running in high gear when it snapped, and was that the case both times?

Edit: Looks alot more like a flex break than a torsional one so pressing a thick piece of cromo tube into the shaft might be the answer🤔

 

[HondaTech]

Running in high gear when it snapped, and was that the case both times?

Yes, the first time was at the 12 hour TexPlex race, we limped it in low for awhile then the rest in reverse.

The 2nd time was coming off a hump and snapped it after it came down. That happened during the 1st race after the Heartland challenge 4 hour race.

In person they look like they almost twisted in half, maybe cracked at the hole first, then got weak.

 

[HondaTech]

Here's some carnage when you continue to drive after breaking this shaft.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

You would think by the looks of the passages but it doesn't make any sense if oil is pumped from the engine if you can drain just the sub trans and not have to touch the oil in the engine to refill.

Also we run Honda Moly oil in ours and customers and have never had a clutch slipping problem.

Also look at the lubrication diagram, it doesn't show oil being fed through the countershaft into the sub trans. I'm pretty sure that's a seal at the end to seal the oil flow off.

I just stared at the case and gears for 10min and figured out how the lubrication system works. You are 100% correct in saying it's splash lubricated and I was 100% wrong thinking it wasn't.

For anyone curious...... Gear oil gets flung off the teeth on the low gear set:

And into that open port in the the case half, from there it drips down those oil passages to the various bearings and ends up going into the output shaft and lubricates the needle bearings through the oil holes:

Now that we have established that and looking at the broken shaft pictures, in my mind pressing in a thick piece of cromo tubing and redrilling the oil holes should solve that problem. That shaft is cracking from flexing presumably because the gears are trying to push themselves apart and chamfering the ends of the tube like the stock shaft so it picks up the drip oil is all that's needed. No tig welding required in my opinion as long as the press fit is enough to keep the tube in place.


I should have never doubted @HondaTech, the man knows all things Talon/Pioneer. 😎

 

[CID]

...
No tig welding required in my opinion as long as the press fit is enough to keep the tube in place.

I should have never doubted @HondaTech, the man knows all things Talon/Pioneer. 😎

Man, if you're in there, I don't see any reason not to TIG the ends of the added rod.

I don't see anything wrong with 'discussing' a failure, it's how we got men on the moon, robots on Mars and Voyager leaving the Solar System.

 

[HondaTech]

I just stared at the case and gears for 10min and figured out how the lubrication system works. You are 100% correct in saying it's splash lubricated and I was 100% wrong thinking it wasn't.

For anyone curious...... Gear oil gets pushed off this gearish looking thing on the high gear input:
View attachment 368315

And into that open port in the the case half, from there it drips down those oil passages to the various bearings and ends up going into the output shaft and lubricates the needle bearings through the oil holes:
View attachment 368316


Now that we have established that and looking at the broken shaft pictures @HondaTech posted there is no doubt in my mind that pressing in a thick piece of cromo tubing and redrilling the oil holes will solve that problem. That shaft is cracking from flexing presumably because the gears are trying to push themselves apart and chamfering the ends of the tube like the stock shaft so it picks up the drip oil is all that's needed. No tig welding required in my opinion as long as the press fit is enough to keep the tube in place.


I should have never doubted @HondaTech, the man knows all things Talon/Pioneer. 😎

To be perfectly honest alot of thr information I have has come from trial and error, testing to see what works kinda stuff.

Honda leaves alot for us to figure out, more than we should.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

@HondaTech

Have you guys tried installing 4 heavy springs in between the high/low gears on that hub? I stared at that subtrans way to long last night and now that I truly understand what's going on in there I wonder why Honda chose to use a floating gear pack dampened by springs. Shock load from those springs winding up and slamming the gears into the stops on the hub landing on the throttle would certainly cause the input shaft to snap. I didn't realize that in high gear the input was driving off the splines on the thinner end of the input shaft.

I'm back to thinking the cromo support tube needs to tig welded on both ends and not just pressed in like I originally thought.

And in my racer mind I'm wondering how difficult it would be to eliminate those springs all together and fix both gears to that splined hub. 🤔

 

[HondaTech]

@HondaTech

Have you guys tried installing 4 heavy springs in between the high/low gears on that hub? I stared at that subtrans way to long last night and now that I truly understand what's going on in there I wonder why Honda chose to use a floating gear pack dampened by springs. Shock load from those springs winding up and slamming the gears into the stops on the hub landing on the throttle would certainly cause the input shaft to snap. I didn't realize that in high gear the input was driving off the splines on the thinner end of the input shaft.

I'm back to thinking the cromo support tube needs to tig welded on both ends and not just pressed in like I originally thought.

And in my racer mind I'm wondering how difficult it would be to eliminate those springs all together and fix both gears to that splined hub. 🤔

View attachment 368354
View attachment 368355

They use dampened gears like that on alot of final drive gears. The Goldwing is the same way, im assuming it's there to reduce shock from abrupt engagement and shifting.

I wonder what would it be like without the springs? Those guys get paid way more than me to understand that stuff.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I wonder what would it be like without the springs?

I'm going to ask my machinest buddy if he thinks he can fix the gears to the hub without using the springs when I bring him the parts this week. If he doesn't think it's possible I'm going to have him make 6 solid aluminum "springs" to replace the stock ones. This motor/trans/subtrans sure has alot of torque absorbing components built into it. Is Honda just overly cautious when designing these things or is it so fragile it can't handle the shock loads without all the absorbers? Guess I'll be the guinea pig and find out...

 

[DRZRon1]

been learning from you all, love this stuff, I think the yxz has that spring loaded design to take the shock load as well.

just an observation, if you strengthen that main shaft, will it just move the forces somewhere else and break the cases, etc. - is it possible to just swap that shaft at 750 miles or a royal pita?

they even did a solid and radiuses\chamfered the oil holes

you two will have billet aluminum machined cases soon enough - lol......

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Man, if you're in there, I don't see any reason not to TIG the ends of the added rod.

I don't see anything wrong with 'discussing' a failure, it's how we got men on the moon, robots on Mars and Voyager leaving the Solar System.

I love having discussions like this. We are never going to figure out how to upgrade or prevent failures to our machines without threads like these.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

been learning from you all, love this stuff, I think the yxz has that spring loaded design to take the shock load as well.

just an observation, if you strengthen that main shaft, will it just move the forces somewhere else and break the cases, etc. - is it possible to just swap that shaft at 750 miles or a royal pita?

they even did a solid and radiuses\chamfered the oil holes

you two will have billet aluminum machined cases soon enough - lol......

I guess once I upgrade the input shaft by tig welding a cromo tube in there I'll find out what the next weak link is, if there is one.

I don't think we will ever need billet cases but a 300M sub-trans input shaft would be an awesome upgrade in my opinion.

 

[DRZRon1]

any possibility to remove low gear, put a spacer in? shhhhhhhh.......or at least drill it, machine some weight off