2022 gear ratio update info?

[906UP]

I read the "info" from the Cryoheat site and got a few good laughs out of it. Most of what they're selling is hyperbole, snake oil, etc. Maybe I'm missing the big picture but it seems like a money waster.

FWIW, I've been in the gear industry for 20+ years, have helped design & manufacture gears for everything from lawn tractors to Blackhawk helicopters.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I read the "info" from the Cryoheat site and got a few good laughs out of it. Most of what they're selling is hyperbole, snake oil, etc. Maybe I'm missing the big picture but it seems like a money waster.

FWIW, I've been in the gear industry for 20+ years, have helped design & manufacture gears for everything from lawn tractors to Blackhawk helicopters.

And you have never heard of REM polishing? I've been around race cars in one form or another since the age of 10 and have seen that process done to thousands of parts for the friction and heat reduction benifits it brings. I'm not convinced about the cryo thing making parts stronger but I know for sure that micro polishing gears and shafts frees up horsepower. This isn't something you do expecting huge gains, it's something you do to squeeze every last ounce of power out of an already highly modified drivetrain.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

any possibility to remove low gear, put a spacer in? shhhhhhhh.......or at least drill it, machine some weight off

Rules specifically state that all gears in the transmission and sub trans must work, so I can't take any gears out. Plus, the reverse idler uses low gear to engauge the output shaft so even if I could remove low I'd lose reverse.

There is nothing in the rules that states I can't modify internals to lighten them, so we are going to explore those options.

 

[HondaTech]

I love having discussions like this. We are never going to figure out how to upgrade or prevent failures to our machines without threads like these.

When we snapped the 2nd shaft, everyone my GM talked to acted like replacing the entire sub trans guts every 1000 miles was just something you do.

But I guess since no one is making anything, what else can you do? It seems to be mainly turbo cars that snap them as well.

It's like the cracked turbo headers, DR. Powersports has tried everything and they can't keep the flange nuts tight or the pipe from cracking. My GM said someone should just make a cast manifold like Can-Am and be done with the mess. But no one wants to foot the bill for the small market. The turbo trail guys with Bell's header aren't having these issues either, just the ones racing with a turbo. Even Hess couldn't keep their header together, so they jumped back to an N/A car and placed 2nd against a field of turbo cars including the Miller bros.

 

[906UP]

And you have never heard of REM polishing? I've been around race cars in one form or another since the age of 10 and have seen that process done to thousands of parts for the friction and heat reduction benifits it brings. I'm not convinced about the cryo thing making parts stronger but I know for sure that micro polishing gears and shafts frees up horsepower. This isn't something you do expecting huge gains, it's something you do to squeeze every last ounce of power out of an already highly modified drivetrain.

I have, I understand where you're coming from but there can be too smooth, if surface roughness Ra falls below .05 of a micron you will burn up your gears due to the lack of oil retention. Typically when polishing we try to get Rpk below .01 w Rvk staying constant when compared to a ground gear, .02-.03 for maximum oil retention. I have seen gears fail minutes into a durability test due to being too smooth.

Now when it comes to the Honda (insert model here) trans there is a ton of room for improvement, the gear designs remind me of tractor gears from the 50's. They're very strong but far from perfect.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

When we snapped the 2nd shaft, everyone my GM talked to acted like replacing the entire sub trans guts every 1000 miles was just something you do.

But I guess since no one is making anything, what else can you do? It seems to be mainly turbo cars that snap them as well.

It's like the cracked turbo headers, DR. Powersports has tried everything and they can't keep the flange nuts tight or the pipe from cracking. My GM said someone should just make a cast manifold like Can-Am and be done with the mess. But no one wants to foot the bill for the small market. The turbo trail guys with Bell's header aren't having these issues either, just the ones racing with a turbo. Even Hess couldn't keep their header together, so they jumped back to an N/A car and placed 2nd against a field of turbo cars including the Miller bros.

Obviously a 300M replacement shaft would be the correct answer to the output shaft problem but like you said, nobody is making those and nobody wants to put up the cash to have them made so we are stuck with trying to figure out a solution ourselves. I thing pressing in a cromo tube into it and redrilling the oil holes is our best option. I don't know if tig welding the ends would help or if the friction of the press fit will be enough. Between having Greg's brain to pick and my machinist buddy who works in the offroad industry I think we will be able to come up with a solution to the problem.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I have, I understand where you're coming from but there can be too smooth, if surface roughness Ra falls below .05 of a micron you will burn up your gears due to the lack of oil retention. Typically when polishing we try to get Rpk below .01 w Rvk staying constant when compared to a ground gear, .02-.03 for maximum oil retention. I have seen gears fail minutes into a durability test due to being too smooth.

Now when it comes to the Honda (insert model here) trans there is a ton of room for improvement, the gear designs remind me of tractor gears from the 50's. They're very strong but far from perfect.

I get what you are saying about gears being too smooth and I have to assume CryoHeat and the other companies we have used for race car stuff know this as well and their process takes that into account. I know in my personal experience with micro polished transmission and quick change rear end parts that it definitely reduces fluid temp levels. If the fluid temps are lower and not higher after micro polishing we can assume it reduces friction and is technically freeing up horsepower. We can also assume that the process isn't making the gears too smooth because if that was the case temps would rise, not fall and stuff would burn up in minutes like you stated.

I'm sure these subtrans gears and gears mass produced in the automotive industry are probably no where near as precision as something made for a helicopter and that's probably why we can benefit from the micro polishing process.

I'm also just a redneck that repairs drill rigs for a living and likes to play with race cars. Please don't mistake anything I post as knowing what I'm talking about. 🤣

 

[Smitty335]

I get what you are saying about gears being too smooth and I have to assume CryoHeat and the other companies we have used for race car stuff know this as well and their process takes that into account. I know in my personal experienc HA!e with micro polished transmission and quick change rear end parts that it definitely reduces fluid temp levels. If the fluid temps are lower and not higher after micro polishing we can assume it reduces friction and is technically freeing up horsepower. We can also assume that the process isn't making the gears too smooth because if that was the case temps would rise, not fall and stuff would burn up in minutes like you stated.

I'm sure these subtrans gears and gears mass produced in the automotive industry are probably no where near as precision as something made for a helicopter and that's probably why we can benefit from the micro polishing process.

I'm also just a redneck that repairs drill rigs for a living and likes to play with race cars. Please don't mistake anything I post as knowing what I'm talking about. 🤣

Well go repair a drill rig, Joe needs your help now! Just kidding!

 

[GPR1500SC]

How much lower percentage wise (or tooth count) is the 2022 subtrans ratio? Maybe it might help with acceleration off corners and such. I need to think about this some....

Slowpoke do you need to be spoon fed?
or can you drink from a sippy cup.
if you would read what I posted you would know the answer.

So I will post it again
I don't know the actual gear ratio number. here is a picture of a 2020 Talon high gear set and a 2022 Pioneer gear set so you can count it for your and self and see that I am not spreading false hoods, the speedometer against the GPS tells me they are about equal to two inches of tire size.

If you ever got near a race track you would know that the closer you can keep your engine in the sweet spot the faster you go.

You NEED Pioneer high range gears in your race car it will make you faster is that plain enough for you to understand.

there is no info about gears on line that I could find I BOUGHT an PAID for a 2022 Pioneer transmission I held each gear except 5th in my hand and counted the teeth my self that is how I KNOW what I am talking about.

 

[GPR1500SC]

the picture did not attach to the first post

 

[DRZRon1]

I don't know, so asking, how do those dampening springs on the gears work in the transfer case? I looked at the yxz and it there is a spring on the shaft that I am thinking is for taking shock out of the assembly... snagged a photo of another shaft from the talon forum..

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

View attachment 368534I don't know, so asking, how do those dampening springs on the gears work in the transfer case? I looked at the yxz and it there is a spring on the shaft that I am thinking is for taking shock out of the assembly... snagged a photo of another shaft from the talon forum..

The springs fit into the pockets on the hub in the bottom of the photo. That hub is splined and is where it attaches to the output shaft. When the gears are powered it compresses the springs and moves the machine. I assume they also act as a cushion for shockloads. The cracked shaft in your picture is the input shaft. The splines above the break are what drives the subtrans when it's in high gear and that end of the input shaft is also the thinnest.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Would anyone be intrested in a 300M input shaft for their sub-trans? My buddy in the offroad industry said he has the equipment to make a batch of these if there were enough intrest. Obviously they wouldn't be cheap, but then again neither is replacing the sub trans internals and/or the cases when the shaft snaps and takes out a bunch of stuff inside.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Slowpoke do you need to be spoon fed?
or can you drink from a sippy cup.
if you would read what I posted you would know the answer.

So I will post it again
I don't know the actual gear ratio number. here is a picture of a 2020 Talon high gear set and a 2022 Pioneer gear set so you can count it for your and self and see that I am not spreading false hoods, the speedometer against the GPS tells me they are about equal to two inches of tire size.

If you ever got near a race track you would know that the closer you can keep your engine in the sweet spot the faster you go.

You NEED Pioneer high range gears in your race car it will make you faster is that plain enough for you to understand.

there is no info about gears on line that I could find I BOUGHT an PAID for a 2022 Pioneer transmission I held each gear except 5th in my hand and counted the teeth my self that is how I KNOW what I am talking about.
View attachment 368493

Thanks! You posting a picture of the actual gear sets cleared everything up. Had you done that the first time I wouldn't need to be spoon fed.

And in case you were not aware, I've been to the race track a time or three.....

😁

 

[Smitty335]

Thanks! You posting a picture of the actual gear sets cleared everything up. Had you done that the first time I wouldn't need to be spoon fed.

And in case you were not aware, I've been to the race track a time or three.....

View attachment 368548View attachment 368549View attachment 368550


😁

I learned something today. Talking about gears makes people grumpy! HA! Just messing with y'all!

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Got it right this time..... oops

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

And I'm assuming that the gear set with the lower ratio in the top of the photo is the Pioneer set.

So the 2022 Pioneer gear set has a lower ratio that would make my machine accelerate quicker, and if I replace 6th gear in my transmission (with 2022 pioneer higher ratio 6th) the top speed would end up the same as stock.

I think I might want to try this.....

 

[HondaTech]

Slowpoke do you need to be spoon fed?
or can you drink from a sippy cup.
if you would read what I posted you would know the answer.

So I will post it again
I don't know the actual gear ratio number. here is a picture of a 2020 Talon high gear set and a 2022 Pioneer gear set so you can count it for your and self and see that I am not spreading false hoods, the speedometer against the GPS tells me they are about equal to two inches of tire size.

If you ever got near a race track you would know that the closer you can keep your engine in the sweet spot the faster you go.

You NEED Pioneer high range gears in your race car it will make you faster is that plain enough for you to understand.

there is no info about gears on line that I could find I BOUGHT an PAID for a 2022 Pioneer transmission I held each gear except 5th in my hand and counted the teeth my self that is how I KNOW what I am talking about.
View attachment 368493

I was under the assumption he was trying to just swap 22 Talon stuff into his older model. The information I posted was referencing those ratios which haven't changed.

The Pioneer is a whole different story.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I think I got this figured out between whats posted in this thread, whats posted in the other thread and what i just looked up on Babbits.....

Subtrans gears:
23671-HL4-AJO
23681-HL4-AJO

Transmission gears:
23511-HL4-AJO (6th gear main shaft)
23521-HL4-AJO (6th gear countershaft)

Swapping the subtrans gears lowers the ratio from 1.88:1 down to 1.96:1

Swapping 6th gear in from a 2022 Pioneer lowers the ratio from 1.25:1 down to 1.31:1. This confuses me. I was expecting a higher ratio for 6th not lower. 🤔


@GPR1500SC are these all the correct part numbers and the same as what you used in your subtrans? If you can confirm them for me I'm going to order all this stuff and get it coming while my engine and subtrans are apart. Thanks!!

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I updated my posts with the high gear ratio change. Apparently I'm a dumb ass and didn't do the math right. Doh!