P1000 A Lower Reverse With Talon Parts!!!! - Honda Pioneer 1000

[HondaTech]

Is it a reverse CHAIN that's missing in this picture?

No Honda doesnt use a chain in their sub transmission anywhere.

All the pictures of the sub trans I can find in the sevice manual have been disassembled upside down compared to the picture you have.

From what I can see it looks like your only missing the shift drum, a fork and maybe some other parts there. All the gears appear to be there.

 

[Admin]

 

[Zmorris83]

For some reason the "helper" springs and collars are Talon specific as well as the final shaft that the gears ride on. I'm wondering if the difference is enough to cause and issue. I also see a needle bearing that has a Talon specific # too.

The springs and collars arent avaliable for whatever reason yet, not sure what's up with that.

The case and cover also have the HL6 part suffix. I'm thinking I'm just gonna order the two gears and see what happens. The Talon has 25T drive and 22T/16T driven idler. The Pioneer has 27T drive and 20T/16T driven idler. Those 2 parts may be all that's necessary. I know the drive gear is probably trashed on mine and has to be replaced regardless. I'll let y'all know early next week when I have all the stuff in front of me.

Anybody tried a Talon cam in a Pioneer? "2.5mm lift/25° duration intake, 2.2mm lift/45° duration exhaust more" than a Pioneer I am assuming? Sounds very similar to the Africa Twin cam differences. Springs are a different part number which makes me think it's the same duration as Africa Twin but a more aggressive ramp or more lift or both. The spring retainers are same on all 3 versions and the spring seats are the same on the Talon and Africa Twin.

 

[CumminsPusher]

The case and cover also have the HL6 part suffix. I'm thinking I'm just gonna order the two gears and see what happens. The Talon has 25T drive and 22T/16T driven idler. The Pioneer has 27T drive and 20T/16T driven idler. Those 2 parts may be all that's necessary. I know the drive gear is probably trashed on mine and has to be replaced regardless. I'll let y'all know early next week when I have all the stuff in front of me.

Anybody tried a Talon cam in a Pioneer? "2.5mm lift/25° duration intake, 2.2mm lift/45° duration exhaust more" than a Pioneer I am assuming? Sounds very similar to the Africa Twin cam differences. Springs are a different part number which makes me think it's the same duration as Africa Twin but a more aggressive ramp or more lift or both. The spring retainers are same on all 3 versions and the spring seats are the same on the Talon and Africa Twin.

@snuffnwhisky

 

[Zmorris83]

No Honda doesnt use a chain in their sub transmission anywhere.

All the pictures of the sub trans I can find in the sevice manual have been disassembled upside down compared to the picture you have.

From what I can see it looks like your only missing the shift drum, a fork and maybe some other parts there. All the gears appear to be there.

My brother just walked over and took a few milliseconds to look at that picture and said "they're laid away from each other".

There's nothing missing in the picture....I feel like a moron now. A chain or another gear would make it forward, not reverse.

 

[HondaTech]

The case and cover also have the HL6 part suffix. I'm thinking I'm just gonna order the two gears and see what happens. The Talon has 25T drive and 22T/16T driven idler. The Pioneer has 27T drive and 20T/16T driven idler. Those 2 parts may be all that's necessary. I know the drive gear is probably trashed on mine and has to be replaced regardless. I'll let y'all know early next week when I have all the stuff in front of me.

Anybody tried a Talon cam in a Pioneer? "2.5mm lift/25° duration intake, 2.2mm lift/45° duration exhaust more" than a Pioneer I am assuming? Sounds very similar to the Africa Twin cam differences. Springs are a different part number which makes me think it's the same duration as Africa Twin but a more aggressive ramp or more lift or both. The spring retainers are same on all 3 versions and the spring seats are the same on the Talon and Africa Twin.

I'd say the cam could be tuned for better exhaust note or for more/different power than a Twin.

Specs for both:

TALON
Int. Open 14 BTDC
Int. Close 41 ABDC
Exh. Open 44 BBDC
Exh. Close 11 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.840 - 42.08 mm
EX. 42.100 - 42.34 mm

Africa Twin
Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 40 ABDC
Exh. Open 40 BBDC
Exh. Close 5 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.240 - 41.400 mm
EX. 41.531 - 41.771 mm

All opening/closing specs are at 1mm (.04 in) lift.

Edit: Pioneer specs for fun

Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 25 ABDC
Exh. Open 20 BBDC
Exh. Close -10 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 39.340 - 39.580 mm
EX. 39.798 - 40.038 mm

 

[Zmorris83]

I'd say the cam could be tuned for better exhaust note or for more/different power than a Twin.

Specs for both:

TALON
Int. Open 14 BTDC
Int. Close 41 ABDC
Exh. Open 44 BBDC
Exh. Close 11 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.840 - 42.08 mm
EX. 42.100 - 42.34 mm

Africa Twin
Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 40 ABDC
Exh. Open 40 BBDC
Exh. Close 5 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.240 - 41.400 mm
EX. 41.531 - 41.771 mm

All opening/closing specs are at 1mm (.04 in) lift.

Edit: Pioneer specs for fun

Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 25 ABDC
Exh. Open 20 BBDC
Exh. Close -10 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 39.340 - 39.580 mm
EX. 39.798 - 40.038 mm

AWESOME! Thank you!

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Pioneer
Lift .293 Intake, .194 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 208 intake, 206 exhaust
Africa Twin
Lift .368 Intake, .262 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 222 intake, 245 exhaust
Talon
Lift .393 Intake, .285 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 232 intake, 258 exhaust

 

[snuffnwhisky]

If your doing any rockcrawling or deep mud with 30"+ tires and no gear reduction, the cams suck unless someone can break into the torque managment. Mid range is better though.

 

[Zmorris83]

I'd say the cam could be tuned for better exhaust note or for more/different power than a Twin.

Specs for both:

TALON
Int. Open 14 BTDC
Int. Close 41 ABDC
Exh. Open 44 BBDC
Exh. Close 11 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.840 - 42.08 mm
EX. 42.100 - 42.34 mm

Africa Twin
Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 40 ABDC
Exh. Open 40 BBDC
Exh. Close 5 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 41.240 - 41.400 mm
EX. 41.531 - 41.771 mm

All opening/closing specs are at 1mm (.04 in) lift.

Edit: Pioneer specs for fun

Int. Open 5 BTDC
Int. Close 25 ABDC
Exh. Open 20 BBDC
Exh. Close -10 ATDC

Cam lobe height standard
IN. 39.340 - 39.580 mm
EX. 39.798 - 40.038 mm

Are you sure about the Pioneer specs? I don't see how a 25° IVC could have the same redline as 40° and only 500 less than 41°. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I was thinking the Pioneer and Africa Twin have the same peak HP RPM?

 

[Zmorris83]

If your doing any rockcrawling or deep mud with 30"+ tires and no gear reduction, the cams suck unless someone can break into the torque managment. Mid range is better though.

I can definitely turn off or modify the torque management.

 

[Zmorris83]

Pioneer
Lift .293 Intake, .194 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 208 intake, 206 exhaust
Africa Twin
Lift .368 Intake, .262 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 222 intake, 245 exhaust
Talon
Lift .393 Intake, .285 exhaust (note the exhaust is without the rocker ratio added)
Duration @.050 232 intake, 258 exhaust

Can you verify the IVC timing? Have you tried the Talon cam in your Pioneer?

 

[russknight]

I need a taller 6th gear.

 

[HondaTech]

Can you verify the IVC timing?

That's what the book says it is. ‍♂️

I was under the impression the Twin made almost 100hp vs thr Pioneer 72hp

Edit: I misunderstood what you said, I thought you meant peak HP, but you were referring to the peak rpm they make their HP at.

 

[Zmorris83]

I need a taller 6th gear.

The 6th mainshaft gears have different part numbers but are both 35T. I would think they are the same ratio. If I remember correctly the owner's manual states the same ratio also. I looked into that because the Talon turns less RPM than the Pioneer on the highway even though I have 28s on both. Looks like the difference is in the differential.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Are you sure about the Pioneer specs? I don't see how a 25° IVC could have the same redline as 40° and only 500 less than 41°. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I was thinking the Pioneer and Africa Twin have the same peak HP RPM?

Are you sure about the Pioneer specs? I don't see how a 25° IVC could have the same redline as 40° and only 500 less than 41°. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I was thinking the Pioneer and Africa Twin have the same peak HP RPM?

Think the pioneer maxed out at around 5700 rpm. The cam events @HondaTech posted are correct but cam shops told me they were not accurate when measuring. My specs were actual measurements. I have had the africa cam in mine for 1.5 years. Its fine when u get the rpm up but terrible off idle. I think 2 companies have cracked the talon ecu so far with no plans to get into the transmission/torque management side of things.

 

[Zmorris83]

That's what the book says it is. ‍♂️

I was under the impression the Twin made almost 100hp vs thr Pioneer 72hp

Edit: I misunderstood what you said, I thought you meant peak HP, but you were referring to the peak rpm they make their HP at.

That's what I meant. 72hp vs 94hp, but at the same RPM. I may be wrong. Can't find the specifics that I saw before.

I'm ordering the Talon cam/springs, Talon/AT spring seats, Talon reverse gears (2) and Pioneer Low/reverse shifter. We will see how it turns out.

 

[Zmorris83]

Think the pioneer maxed out at around 5700 rpm. The cam events @HondaTech posted are correct but cam shops told me they were not accurate when measuring. My specs were actual measurements. I have had the africa cam in mine for 1.5 years. Its fine when u get the rpm up but terrible off idle. I think 2 companies have cracked the talon ecu so far with no plans to get into the transmission/torque management side of things.

Transmission tuning is mandatory in my mind. It may take some time, but I will definitely find the trans/clutch tables.

The same mentality happens in the Duramax tuning world. I would be embarrassed to send a stock trans file/ECM to a customer.

 

[Zmorris83]

Think the pioneer maxed out at around 5700 rpm. The cam events @HondaTech posted are correct but cam shops told me they were not accurate when measuring. My specs were actual measurements. I have had the africa cam in mine for 1.5 years. Its fine when u get the rpm up but terrible off idle. I think 2 companies have cracked the talon ecu so far with no plans to get into the transmission/torque management side of things.

Can you post valve events from those measurements?

IVO
IVC
EVO
EVC

 

[HondaTech]

The 6th mainshaft gears have different part numbers but are both 35T. I would think they are the same ratio. If I remember correctly the owner's manual states the same ratio also. I looked into that because the Talon turns less RPM than the Pioneer on the highway even though I have 28s on both. Looks like the difference is in the differential.

According to the service manual the reverse gear is lower in the sub trans.

 

[HondaTech]

Think the pioneer maxed out at around 5700 rpm. The cam events @HondaTech posted are correct but cam shops told me they were not accurate when measuring. My specs were actual measurements. I have had the africa cam in mine for 1.5 years. Its fine when u get the rpm up but terrible off idle. I think 2 companies have cracked the talon ecu so far with no plans to get into the transmission/torque management side of things.

Didnt Silber Turbo have an PCM flash that could featured adjusted shift profile and rpm?