They are the same design. Some parts are the same, some different. It appears the differences are mostly because the axles in the Pioneer are smaller.
Smitty335
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I've got a couple friends I ride with that have LE's. I have seen it several times where I just crawl up a rock ledge, they follow the same line as I used, they get a front tire off the ground and there done, stack rocks or winch at that point, I've suggested they take them them in for service, just doesn't seem right how there I4WD works? Have any suggestions?
Personally, I have little faith in the reliability of wired things where I ride. There are thousands of sticks on the trails and I have managed to put sticks through just about every nook and cranny on the machine at one time or other. I prefer to stop and lock it when in doubt. I'm not running races or in a hurry to get anywhere. The few seconds to stop and shift are not an issue for me. Normally its shifting between turf mode and all locked mode. I ride with an LE and it does just as well. It's a matter of driving style and personal preference. I can't see the need to debate which is best, they are both good.🤷♂️
Definitely something wrong there. Our group of Talons have tackled some pretty wild stuff in Moab and Sand Hollow (7 and 8 ranked trails) and although i4WD is not perfect, it has never let the "in the air" tire just free spin like you describe. Working correctly, the tire in the air will spin maybe 1/2 turn then i4WD kicks in and up you go.
Maybe they should start by trying the things I listed in this post...
P1000 - i4wd vs lockers
It seems to me after reading a lot of the comments. It depends on a person’s trail riding preference and driving abilities. I’ve taken my 2020 Honda P1000-5 places I really didn’t think it would go. And my Honda is stock. That being said, I don’t take my machine places that I look at it and say...
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Further investigating while re-assembling my front diff shed some light on just how the Talon and Pioneer diffs really work. They are actually a type of locker that uses torque to basically bind the side gears together and to the inside of the carrier. Similar principal as the Torque Locker just not as abrupt. It is hard without visuals but I will try to explain. Maybe I will make a video since I have my diff all disassembled.Definitely something wrong there. Our group of Talons have tackled some pretty wild stuff in Moab and Sand Hollow (7 and 8 ranked trails) and although i4WD is not perfect, it has never let the "in the air" tire just free spin like you describe. Working correctly, the tire in the air will spin maybe 1/2 turn then i4WD kicks in and up you go.
Maybe they should start by trying the things I listed in this post...
P1000 - i4wd vs lockers
It seems to me after reading a lot of the comments. It depends on a person’s trail riding preference and driving abilities. I’ve taken my 2020 Honda P1000-5 places I really didn’t think it would go. And my Honda is stock. That being said, I don’t take my machine places that I look at it and say...
The pinion turns the ring that turns the housing that turns the "Cam Followers". The followers are angled and turn the "Face Cams" (similar part to side gears in a regular diff) at an angle pushing the Cams out against the housing. These cam and followers are positioned/timed so that they also act in a similar manner to side/spider gears (one cam turns clockwise forcing the other to turn counter-clockwise). There is a cone washer (spring) that keeps everything tight. When torque is applied to the ring gear, the followers wedge the cams, pushing them out against the housing, collapsing the cone washer and binding the entire assembly into a bound/locked position.
The main discovery that I uncovered is contrary to how I believed i4WD worked. I always thought that when one wheel slipped, i4WD applied brakes forcing the power through the diff (as if it was an open diff) to the other wheel. This is NOT correct. When one wheel no longer has enough traction, the pressure/torque against the ring gear can be lost and the binding action of the diff is then lost and snaps out of lock mode. When i4WD detects this slippage and applies the brakes, forces the torque back on the assembly and binds the diff back up and locks the front diff again. It applies brakes as long as needed to maintain the bound/locked diff but how it determines that is beyond me.
The other thing I discovered is why the front and rear are different ratios, it is by design and makes the front diff lock engage when going straight. In 4WD, the different ratios force the front to apply and keep torque against the cams and followers and locks the front end up as long as you are going straight (or almost straight). When you turn, the outer tire starts to rotate faster, unbinding the diff and around the corner you go without the diff locked. Once you straighten back up, the diff locks up again. Those of us that are using different tire pressures to try to make up for the gear difference are actually reducing the front diff's locking effectiveness.
The front diff locking mechanism requires some traction to make the cam/followers bind/lock. This is why i4WD doesn't do very well in the snow or mud (and sometimes sand), there is not enough traction in the front end to cause pressure against the cam/followers to engage the locker. Even when i4WD attempts to create that pressure, the tire with the most traction doesn't have enough to create the needed pressure to lock the diff so the system "hunts" and just switches braking left, right, left, right, etc. In the snow and sand, this is probably what causes that dreaded "hopping". It would probably be better to use a bypass in these situations so i4WD doesn't "hunt".
During the assembly measuring process, my spring loaded backlash was measured at .55mm (.023") but is supposed to be .15mm (.006"). That doesn't seem like much difference but it is almost 4 times what the service manual says. That means that my cam/followers must move almost 4 times as much to bind/lock the front diff and that has to create some lag or inefficiency in the system. I believe that if that backlash is excessive, it may cause the diff to slowly or never lock up and therefore i4WD will react very slow or possibly not work work at all. I have ordered the correct shim to get the backlash down to the .15mm mark.
Another thing that peaked my curiosity after determining the diff uses friction/binding to lock is the gear oil. I was using synthetic with friction modifier. All you can really get off the shelf is oil with friction modifiers in it. Problem is that synthetic plus FM may create less friction than the gear oil speced by Honda for the front diff, causing less friction and hampering the binding/locking of the diff. They specifically call for 80W-90 GL5 Honda Shaft Drive Oil or equivalent and Honda Shaft Drive Oil does not contain friction modifiers. I believe that the oil I was using may be too slippery and may reduce the locking affect of the front diff so I am sourcing some 80W-90 without friction modifiers for my front diff.
Smitty335
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I will pass this info along. The LE's I ride with have less than 800 miles on them each. I bet they're double footing it. Thanks!For those of you that actually own a machine with i4WD and think it may not be working as good as it should, try the following...
- Try not to apply the brakes (aka double footing) when climbing in slick conditions when i4WD engages, it throws off the system. If you tend to "double foot" like I did and have your foot on the brake and feel the brake pedal vibrating while trying to accelerate/climb, you and the i4WD are fighting each other. Took me a bit to break that bad habit
- Completely and thoroughly bleed your brakes (front and rear). Jeff Proctor's team discovered that even the smallest amount of air in the system will slow down the motorized application of the front brakes and make i4WD less responsive.
- Make sure your front bearings are OK. The slightest amount of movement will cause the rotors to "wobble" and the front calipers to collapse and require more motorized brake application and slow i4WD response way down. A warped front rotor will do the same thing.
D
Dasmoeturhead
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In this world of everything being electric, automatic, and computerized, and what have you; i Iike the fact that I'm in control of my machine. No computer to decide for me, and so far my knowledge and brain, and particularly my Pioneer haven't let me down. The old "16" continues to impress. It was determined long ago, that its a keeper.
I find the 14 pages (so far) in this thread interesting, but the poor horse had been dead for a couple of weeks, and yet, it's still being beaten.... Still fun though!
CumminsPusher
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I know what I see, and it’s not what the hardcore I-4wd guys say. This was my daughter this weekend. Happened with me driving and the other Talon as well.
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April 25, 2022
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TripleB
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It says private videoI know what I see, and it’s not what the hardcore I-4wd guys say. This was my daughter t his weekend. Happened with me driving and the other Talon as well.
April 25, 2022
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906UP
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Get a TL and be done with it, you won't be disappointedI know what I see, and it’s not what the hardcore I-4wd guys say. This was my daughter this weekend. Happened with me driving and the other Talon as well.
April 25, 2022
CumminsPusher
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Maybe before winter. But if the Torque Locker makes it better then how could the 4wd/diff not be better too because you have a choice. I-4wd is not supposed to slip as per a bunch of people and Honda. Just my daughter made it slip on a simple hill, makes me wonder how some others don’t notice it.
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Smitty335
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Did I talk about this? Probably not without being chastised by the I4WD enthusiasts out there. Im no brain surgeon but this is pretty simple, if you ride aggressive trails. Im going to laugh my way to my happy place! HA!
Tigermark
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The disappointment is Honda not giving you a choice! They already charge you more for the I4wd, now you have to spend more and modify the system? Very disappointing indeed
Smitty335
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I think I talked about that also?
Smitty335
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Am I out off the dog house now?
No, that sounds like hate speech and Russian disinformation . . . go to your room!
906UP
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OK, you guys win. Not sure what you're looking for, an apology front Honda maybe? I'm done w this.
JenElio
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