P1000 OnTheJob's P1K-3 Build: "The Pie-O-Near"

[ohanacreek]

Exactly... the instantaneous current draw will likely trip any breaker or blow any fuse you would put in between the battery and your winch...
FredD

Not true I have a 300amp breaker and it only trips when I have it stalled out on first layer. Its a safety measure JUST IN CASE the positive wire rubs through the loom AND the rubber coating on the wire, and grounds to the frame I don't have a popo-esque fire on my hands and no machine.

Solenoids need to be able to handle continuous duty at least 300 amps as most SxS winches will draw that when on the first layer.

The cable that comes with them is rated for the duty cycle of the winch NOT the max current draw that is how they get away with a 6ga cable on a 4500lb winch...I am running a 2ga cable and its STILL not rated for a continuous 300amp draw.

 

[RedFred1]

Not true I have a 300amp breaker and it only trips when I have it stalled out on first layer. Its a safety measure JUST IN CASE the positive wire rubs through the loom AND the rubber coating on the wire, and grounds to the frame I don't have a popo-esque fire on my hands and no machine.

Solenoids need to be able to handle continuous duty at least 300 amps as most SxS winches will draw that when on the first layer.

The cable that comes with them is rated for the duty cycle of the winch NOT the max current draw that is how they get away with a 6ga cable on a 4500lb winch...I am running a 2ga cable and its STILL not rated for a continuous 300amp draw.

So... you said it is not true then go on to say it does trip under certain conditions...

Indeed... a huge draw requires a huge breaker... as you said 300 amps isn't always enough... How much is enough?

The instantaneous load could be double that periodically.​

The current rating isn't as important in that case as the capability to hold a large inrush without tripping and then be able to provide adequate circuit protection. This winch company offers advice on circuit protection for their winch line.

How to choose the right circuit breaker for your winch?

Over 300 amps continuous requires an aught (0) or 1 gauge wire if it is a few feet in length. No one uses that that I am aware of... you can buy a 300 amp fuse or breaker kit...no problem... just be aware of the characteristics of the device you are installing to get the most benefit from it. The statement he made is still true, most manufacturers documentation do not show a protective device on that circuit. It does not mean that you cannot use one.

My .02 cents.. others may have different comments.

I don't want to steal this mans build thread, so if you would like to continue to discuss it, open a new thread and I will chat with you there!

Thanks,

FredD

 

[ohanacreek]

So... you said it is not true then go on to say it does trip under certain conditions.

Read my reply to the portion of your statement I quoted. Your inrush spike statement is not true for winch use. ALL breakers trip under certain conditions, that’s their job.

Winches don’t have an in-rush like you are talking about, @30amp initial draw maybe. They aren’t loaded up at start like a AC compressor and have something to overcome then run. They load up as you put tension on the rope. They may reach peak draw quickly but they don’t spike beyond rated draw and come back down. Circuit breaker I am using is designed to trip in the condition of reaching a peak and staying there, lighter circuit breakers of that type will trip under much less than a stall load, I’ve tried them. The first layer stall load on my winch is @320 amps I’ve tested it a couple of times in a controlled environment. So the 300amp I have trips under @320amps and it trips within 10seconds of it getting there. As I don’t have (0) gauge winch cables and the overload condition I have the goal of protecting against is not related to winch use. The 300a breaker fits my use. I’ve only tripped it a couple of times since I am rarely on the first layer and it won’t load to the full stall amperage unless you are on the first layer and at stall condition.

Really not anything to debate, just clarify for understanding.

 

[RedFred1]

Really not anything to debate, just clarify for understanding.

Nice! Real world data is always preferred... Inrush current was a loose statement... sorry... I meant max initial current or locked rotor current if that is the case at startup. Thanks for the discussion!

FredD

 

[ohanacreek]

Nice! Real world data is always preferred... Inrush current was a loose statement... sorry... I meant max initial current or locked rotor current if that is the case at startup. Thanks for the discussion!

FredD

Locked rotor and stall I agree.

Sometimes we talk in terms we forget some don’t understand. Shortens what we have to type but sometimes there’s some info lost and lost to translation.

There are a LOT of folks who read but never like/post and I forget they are reading sometimes. When I shorten what I have to say, they may be trying to learn and don’t understand enough to fill in the gaps. I know I am that way on other forums when I try to get info on things I search for.

 

[jwfirebird]

have to agree with ohana here, most of the diagrams and wire kits dont show or offer adequate protection, really just to cheapen the kit, no body cares but you if your machine is going to burn to the ground when you have a chafed wire.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0904/1664/files/14469.pdf?8002168826546711919
all the super winches ive had have and show in the diagrams thermal breakers by the battery in the appropriate size, i think only the cheap wiring kits and winches really just dont have the proper protection the super winches come big wire and the breakers they show

 

[OnTheJob]

Has there been a reported instance where there has been an electrical issue with/without a fused/circuit breaker winch? I can't remember one so let discuss. I'm open to debate.

 

[jwfirebird]

the issue with the wires for the winch are big and they carry enough power to arc a large distance, sort of like dropping a wrench across a battery. so if you get any nicks in it even just close to the frame or any metal its going to arc to it till the battery is gone or wire melts in half, you have gas and oil would ignite and boom its gone. if you have the correct fuse at the battery it will only arc a second and stop

 

[RedFred1]

What Are the Basics of Winch Wiring?

M12000 Winch - What Fuse to use?

Winch wiring: Need Circuit Breaker advice - Jeep Wrangler Forum

I did not see any messages on utility type boards that had total catastrophic loss due to winch wiring issues. Does not mean it has not happened. I did see some on the 4x4 boards of guys that had melted or burned wiring due to various causes.

The discussion on most of the boards I have read are 50/50 about adding or not adding circuit protection devices... most winch manufacturers do not provide circuit protection, or even discuss it, that does not mean you don’t need or shouldn’t use it. Properly sized circuit protection devices are available but you need to determine what the appropriate size is to prevent nuisance tripping.

Amazon.com: winch circuit breaker - Circuit Breakers / Breakers, Load Centers & Fuses: Tools & Home Improvement

One of the things most often mentioned was a large disconnect switch to cut power in case of a winch relay failure which, apparently, happens more often than you might think... although I do not know what people used in the instances where they experienced failures.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IBOH5EA/ref=psdc_15719961_t3_B007O0BBFM&tag=Hsxsweb24&tag=sxsweb24-20

@ohanacreek did testing on his system to determine operating parameters for his system... imho, knowing YOUR system parameters is the only way to determine your needs.

How to choose the right circuit breaker for your winch?

I have not installed circuit protection nor a switch... yet. I am looking to size a circuit breaker that would go in the battery to winch relay lead and have a switch that would work for that application.

FredD

 

[ohanacreek]

@RedFred1 Right there with you there 1000’s of winches are installed without circuit protection.

I think being prepared for the unexpected and having a built in safety factor is good idea but not necessarily a requirement (it is for me because without bad luck I wouldn’t have any at all).

 

[Fastbuck101]

the issue with the wires for the winch are big and they carry enough power to arc a large distance, sort of like dropping a wrench across a battery. so if you get any nicks in it even just close to the frame or any metal its going to arc to it till the battery is gone or wire melts in half, you have gas and oil would ignite and boom its gone. if you have the correct fuse at the battery it will only arc a second and stop

This is partially correct, it will arc if it comes in contact with a ground circuit. However, it will not arc for any measurable distance, as high voltage is required for that to occur. The current (amperage) will melt the wire if it stays in contact for any length of time. That usually will break the short to ground. Not pretty, maybe even scary-looking, but not fireworks.

 

[jwfirebird]

you never know in real life whats going to happen, sometimes nothing sometimes it arcs a few inches. I would rather be safe than sorry because it would be me that lights the gas and burns it to the ground if there is any remote possibility

 

[Fastbuck101]

you never know in real life whats going to happen, sometimes nothing sometimes it arcs a few inches. I would rather be safe than sorry because it would be me that lights the gas and burns it to the ground if there is any remote possibility

That pesky Murphy is usually pokin' around here too!

 

[DanDan]

Just wondering....I bought the Badland 5000 on sale a while back and have not been home long enough to hook it up. Y'alls discussion got me to wondering if the Badland comes with a circuit breaker or fuse. According to the manual, it comes with a circuit breaker and 6 gauge wire. Now for the question: I'm planning on running 4 gauge wire instead of the 6. Will using the 4 gauge change in any way the circuit breaker effectiveness, or do I need another rated circuit breaker? Why or why not?

 

[jwfirebird]

the breaker will be right still, the wire size increases or decreases your current transfer availability.

 

[RedFred1]

It is pretty common to use oversized wire with a breaker. Sometimes you do it to eliminate voltage drops if the wire is going to be especially long and sometimes it is because the circuit in practice isn't exactly like the circuit designed by the manufacturer. "Generally" as long as the breaker (or fuse) is slightly bigger than the load and the wire ampacity is bigger than the breaker you should have no worries. There are always caveats and rules of thumb and other things used, so I say generally Up one or two sizes = OK. Downsizing wire = never, you risk the wire not being able to handle the current the breaker is rated for... that is how wire insulation burns and fires start.

Here are a few sources to help understand wiring DC circuits.

Part 1: Choosing the Correct Wire Size for a DC Circuit - Blue Sea Systems

Part 2: Select a Fuse and Fuse Holder For Your DC Product Installation - Blue Sea Systems

HTH!

FredD

 

[DanDan]

Thanks, folks. That makes sense and very helpful.

 

[RedFred1]

Toggle Switch... it is his toggle for the stinger power... when he throws the switch the key on power energizes the stinger with power supplied by the 2nd battery through the 100 amp breaker and powers the aux fuse box...

I don't know what brand of switch he used...

 

[ajpyron]

what is the box i have circled?

 

[OnTheJob]

ON-OFF-ON DPDT switch

Rocker switch 589B2 12V MAIN AUX on off on blue ATV UTV RTV DPDT | eBay