Talon Front Driveline Woes

[1HasBeen]

That Honda has not addressed this is a shame.

Heck, the Polaris guys are saying their belts last longer than your driveshaft. J/K

 

[Admin]

 

[Smitty335]

That Honda has not addressed this is a shame.

Heck, the Polaris guys are saying their belts last longer than your driveshaft. J/K

But Honda will stay with the recalls until there taken care of, it takes them a while to realize they have an wide spread issue. I fried the first two clutches on my P1 within the first 800 miles, then they came out with the fix, had that done and 3,000 miles later of serous trail riding, good to go. I appreciate the Honda recall program, it works.

 

[Montecresto]

But there hasn’t been a recall on drivelines.....🤔

 

[Doogle]

Not sure where you have been for the past year but U-Joint failures are all over every forum, YouTube, Facebook, etc. It is a well know issue, Honda has replaced many drivelines under warranty. Some with 15,000 miles and others with only a few hundred. @hondabob has gone through 2 and there are more in his riding group (one of them on a 2021 with 200 miles). There are multiple reports of a replacement driveline lasting only a few hundred miles. It is to the point where I think it is a problem so that is why I dove into it and will continue to do some testing, even on a brand new shaft when it arrives.

Tack welding U-Joint caps is nothing new, folks have been doing it for many, many years without any ill effects. I have even seen cups welded all the way around but I would never recommend that.

If you are concerned with heat, you can always try machining the yokes for full circle clips and add the appropriate Loctite. Problem with full circle clips on the 1000 series is they are still not full circle because the way the yoke is cast/machined (area with red arrows is lower and the clips will not contact there) but you will gain about 50% more clip contact with full circle. OEM clip only touches where the green arrows are (about 50% contact) but if you machine out the blue area and use full circle clips, you will get about 75% contact. If you build up/machine where the red arrows are and machine where the blue arrows are, you will get 100% clip contact. Not really worth the trouble in my opinion, I would just tack weld the caps and be done with it...


View attachment 270968

First, thanks for this detailed reply. I am new to SXS world this year-about 400 miles so far. I bought it to save my old body from playing too much pickleball. Mine stays in Phoenix for winters while I live in Ohio. Initially on the forum deciding on accessories/maintenance issues. I usually go to forums for a specific need, so never came across U-joints.

Not being near my machine now to look, but welding cups means when a U-joint goes out, instead of a $20 replacement you now need to buy 2 universals and a driveshaft + welding again. And I would guess losing warranty is a possibility.
Since I do ride alone mostly I would not be worried as much about losing warranty. More concerned about walking 15 miles to cell phone coverage. I'll need to read more about success rate of those that have welded up. And then see how involved removal of drive parts are. Have you welded every U-joint on the machine?

 

[Plumber32]

Does this possibly effect the x4? Being a different front drive shaft/longer.

 

[1HasBeen]

But Honda will stay with the recalls until there taken care of, it takes them a while to realize they have an wide spread issue. I fried the first two clutches on my P1 within the first 800 miles, then they came out with the fix, had that done and 3,000 miles later of serous trail riding, good to go. I appreciate the Honda recall program, it works.

Maybe, but as pointed out above, there is no recall yet. Here we are a couple model years in, and my friend DC, one of HondaBob's riding clan, had a '21 spit out caps within a couple hundred miles. If it hasn't been addressed in new production yet, a recall is likely not happening next week, but we shall see. As this appears to be purely a QC issue, not a design issue, this could have/should have been remedied much more quickly, based on warranty feedback.

 

[PaulF]

Wel

First, thanks for this detailed reply. I am new to SXS world this year-about 400 miles so far. I bought it to save my old body from playing too much pickleball. Mine stays in Phoenix for winters while I live in Ohio. Initially on the forum deciding on accessories/maintenance issues. I usually go to forums for a specific need, so never came across U-joints.

Not being near my machine now to look, but welding cups means when a U-joint goes out, instead of a $20 replacement you now need to buy 2 universals and a driveshaft + welding again. And I would guess losing warranty is a possibility.
Since I do ride alone mostly I would not be worried as much about losing warranty. More concerned about walking 15 miles to cell phone coverage. I'll need to read more about success rate of those that have welded up. And then see how involved removal of drive parts are. Have you welded every U-joint on the machine?

Tack welding the caps is to prevent failure. Once a cap starts to move, the yoke is damaged and the entire driveline will need to be replaced (unless you can find someone to repair/replace the yoke).
If your caps haven't loosened up then tack weld them to prevent movement and eventual failure.
If they are already loose, replace the driveline and tack weld the caps in the new driveline to prevent it from failing.

Tack welding the caps will most certainly void the warranty (on the driveline) but I would rather lose the warranty on the driveline over losing the driveline out on the trail.

 

[PaulF]

Does this possibly effect the x4? Being a different front drive shaft/longer.

I have not seen any reports of the X4 having a driveline fail (not that it isn't possible). The X4 has a 2 piece driveline with a center carrier bearing and the parts are all different. Maybe the X4 parts have better press fit tolerances than the 2 seater, only time will tell...

 

[Plumber32]

I have not seen any reports of the X4 having a driveline fail (not that it isn't possible). The X4 has a 2 piece driveline with a center carrier bearing and the parts are all different. Maybe the X4 parts have better press fit tolerances than the 2 seater, only time will tell...

View attachment 271100

Awsome thanks for the update

 

[MDFMac]

if you weld it in witch i agree is the best choice. you can grind off the welds... and use the yolks again.
wonder if there is any aftermarkets grabing up this opportunity. aftermarket billet front shaft....... or something shiny.....

 

[PaulF]

if you weld it in witch i agree is the best choice. you can grind off the welds... and use the yolks again.
wonder if there is any aftermarkets grabing up this opportunity. aftermarket billet front shaft....... or something shiny.....

Yes, tack welds are very easy to grind off, replace joint and re-tack weld again.

@SuperATV is looking into a better replacement driveline but has no ETA at this time.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Funny...... When I first mentioned tack welding the caps in about a year ago most of you guys were loosing your minds telling me "But, but that will void the warranty!!" About time you people figured out that voiding the driveline warranty by tack welding the caps is a hell of a lot better option than getting stick on a trail where a warranty won't do squat. 🤪

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

@PaulF, do you have the Spicer #'s for the yolks that take 1-1/4" tubing by chance?

 

[PaulF]

Funny...... When I first mentioned tack welding the caps in about a year ago most of you guys were loosing your minds telling me "But, but that will void the warranty!!" About time you people figured out that voiding the driveline warranty by tack welding the caps is a hell of a lot better option than getting stick on a trail where a warranty won't do squat. 🤪

@PaulF, do you have the Spicer #'s for the yolks that take 1-1/4" tubing by chance?

Well, I was one of those questioning the tack welds but I will give you the info anyway

1.25" tubing Spicer 10-26-37
1.75" tubing Spicer 10-28-97 or Neapco 10-2817

Found some PTO Weld Yokes that may work for the stock tubing (not sure about the wall thickness on stock tubing)...
Neapco NOE-04-6016-A made for 1.5" tube with .065 wall
Neapco NOE-04-2108-A made for 1.5" tube with .083 wall

Also, note: I just discovered the series 1000 joints used for the Talon were only used in a driveline back in the 70's and only on one vehicle for a couple years. Now they are mainly (only?) used for steering columns in large trucks. This may be the reason for the crappy tolerances in the yoke bores. Steering shafts don't spin fast or continuously so there is not really a need for close tolerances as the clips will suffice just fine in a steering column environment.

 

[Montecresto]

Does this possibly effect the x4? Being a different front drive shaft/longer.

I’m glad you asked that. I just assumed the problem had manifest itself in all Talons. Maybe we’ll escape the trouble Plumber....🤔

 

[HavasuDave]

Gosh, like doogle, I haven’t seen this and not sure how I missed it. I also realized that I wasn’t following PauLF so I fixed that by clicking follow.

thanks for all the good information!

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I wonder how much lighter I can make a drive shaft using the yolks for 1.25" tubing? I'm on a mission to remove as much rotating weight as possible from my race car and am about to pull the trigger on a set of beadlock wheels that will net me a 22lb total loss over my current setup. If I can loose a pound or two in the driveshaft area that would help out also.

 

[sandbaja]

I learned from my jeeping days just how much impact the weight of wheels and tires make. Those big tires look pretty and give you a bit more ground clearance but the ride suffers unless you re-gear. 22lbs is quite significant.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I learned from my jeeping days just how much impact the weight of wheels and tires make. Those big tires look pretty and give you a bit more ground clearance but the ride suffers unless you re-gear. 22lbs is quite significant.

The cast aluminum beadlocks I run weigh just under 19lbs each and were the lightest 15 x 8's I could find at the time. The Hoosier tires I run are 24lbs before grooving, so I am already running a pretty light wheel/tire setup.

The new beadlock wheels I'm about to order are 13.5lbs each fully assembled for a 15 x 8.

Ugly but effective for what I'm shooting for.

 

[1HasBeen]

22 lbs of rotating mass as well as unsprung weight will pay big dividends.