Talon Front Driveline Woes

[SLOWPOKE693]

For future reference...... To remove the left side bolt on the front DS loop all you need to do is use a 1/4" drive socket, 1/4" drive swivel and 1/4" drive 3" extension connected to a 3/8" drive ratchet. Pry the floor back ever so slightly and it fits in there from the top. Easy peasy.

 

[Admin]

 

[Boundertom]

For future reference...... To remove the left side bolt on the front DS loop all you need to do is use a 1/4" drive socket, 1/4" drive swivel and 1/4" drive 3" extension connected to a 3/8" drive ratchet. Pry the floor back ever so slightly and it fits in there from the top. Easy peasy.

Yeah, I tried exactly that. With a long 3/8" ratchet. This one was REALLY f***ing tight! It just wasn't happening.

 

[Montecresto]

I probably can't add much new information, but I thought I would relate my experience. I only have 837 miles on my Talon, but with all these reports of drive shaft failures, I knew I had to address this. I finally had time to work on it today. Fortunately, I do have a lift. Unfortunately, I did not have @PaulF to help me do this job! I spent over 2.5 hours just getting the shaft out. I have Trail Armor skids, so it took a few minutes to get those off. The biggest hangup was the left bolt on the front drive shaft loop. I spent 45 minutes on that, using all of my words, to no avail. It must have been tightened to about 5 million ft-lbs! I checked the Honda manual for their procedure, which starts with removing the LF floorboard. I turned to the page on removing the floorboard, and the first step is to remove the dash!!! You have got to be kidding, Honda! I finally used a 3/4" hole saw and cut a hole through the floor board above the bolt. I didn't get the hole in perfect alignment, but it was close enough to get the bolt out. It isn't a flat area, so If I can't get a plastic plug to fit, I think a piece of Gorilla tape will suffice. I didn't have the proper retaining ring pliers to remove the drive shaft clip. I do have a nice set of retaining ring pliers, so I improvised using a large set of retaining ring pliers with 90 degree tips, which worked OK. I do think I will buy the proper pliers. I unbolted the front diff, but I did not loosen the engine bolts as PaulF suggests. I got the shaft loose with no problem, but getting it out of the machine was a puzzle. I finally got it out by the RR wheel. I did have to remove the rear drive shaft loop also.

With the shaft out, I did a close inspection. There was no movement evident in any of the cups, so I got it in time. Cleaning the joints with a wire wheel, tack welding, and spray painting took all of about 20 minutes. Hopefully my drive shaft will now last a long time. I am very disappointed in Honda for allowing an issue like this to continue uncorrected. I will put it all back together tomorrow. Hopefully that will go uneventfully.

One of the pictures below shows two tack welds and how I connected the ground at each cup. The other picture shows the finished, painted job.

View attachment 274134 View attachment 274136

Nice work!

 

[PaulF]

Follow up: Went on a 8 day excursion to Flaming Gorge and another 2 days at the dunes on my cobbled together driveline. Several hundred miles without issue. Came home to find a brand new driveline delivered. As promised, I did some "testing" and am a bit disapointed in what I found...

Driveline is well packaged and looks great but that is where it ends. In the name of discovery, I decided to dismantle the brand new unit to see if I could determine what (if anything) was wrong.

First step was to mark each cup and yoke for reference...

Next, I set up a press and scale to see how much pressure it takes to press each cup out. Nothing fancy, just a simple test here...

Here is how much downward pressure (in pounds) was required to break each cup loose (I did not completely remove the cups, just broke them loose and moved them about .050"). The results speak for themselves.

1. 430 (front driveline yoke)
2. 250 (front slip yoke)
3. 420 (front driveline yoke)
4. 350 (front slip yoke)
5. 160 (rear driveline yoke)
6. 270 (rear slip yoke)
7. 150 (rear driveline yoke)
8. 500 (rear slip yoke)

#5 and #7 are the driveline side of the rear joint. This is pathetic, I weight more than that and could move the cup in the yoke by standing on it! The only cup I consider tight enough is #8. I do not know what is the proper amount of pressure but I have probably replaced 1000 U-Joints in my life and only #8 felt remotely like "normal" to me.

I intended to completely disassemble and measure all the bores but after these weak results, I did not see any point in taking any more measurements. The yokes on this BRAND NEW driveline are TRASH, even the slip yoke bores are loose. I would never replace the joints or even install a complete new driveline without tack welding the cups.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

That's pathetic.... Honda should be ashamed of sending something like that out the door.

 

[Boundertom]

Thanks for the continued research, Paul. I agree that Honda should be ashamed of producing junk like this. This is certainly not the "Honda quality" that I expected when I bought my Talon. We shouldn't have to deal with stuff like this on our $20,000+ toys.

 

[1HasBeen]

Mr. Honda would not be pleased with how his company is being run.

 

[hondabob]

One thing is for sure, there will be lots of failures. Honda needs to send all the drive shafts in stock to special projects to get spot welded to avoid a huge back order problem then deal with the drive shaft vendor.

We have 12 Talons in our ride group. I’m showing them how to cut the drive shaft through the coolant drain hole in the skid plate and pull the drive shaft forward off the sub trans. If they are way out with a bearing cup failure they can drive out in 2WD.

The drive shaft vendor needs to scrap all the oversized yokes or have them spot welded. Without a proper press fit there will be lots of U-joint failures at low mileage. My buddy’s 2021 Talon had a bearing cup failure at less then 400 miles, picture 33797. If you expand the picture you can see the yoke is beat up.

I want to thank my dealer for allowing me to get my forth drive shaft spot welded before insulation. The first three had loose bearing cups. My original drive shaft was replaced before it lost a bearing cup. The C clip had worn into the yoke, picture U-joint 2 and 3.

My second one lost 2 bearing cups in less then 2,800 miles picture U-joint 5. I drove it 6 miles at low speed to get back to camp.

My third one also lost a bearing cup in less then 2,800 miles. We, the dealer tech and I checked to make sure the bearing cup C clips were installed properly. Picture shaft 4 and 5. I felt the vibration right away and drove it slowly about 2 miles to get back to camp. I needed to get it fixed so I could ride for another 2 weeks. My buddy spot welded the bearing cups to fix it. My dealer let me have the front U-joint from my second failed drive shaft so I had a good bearing cup. It was loose in the yoke and would fall out.

My forth drive shaft has the bearing cups spot welded and also the C clips too. Pictures 4thwelded, 4thwelded1, 4thwelded2. Its important to cool the spot weld with a wet paper towel to avoid bearing cup damage.

After 5 years on the Race Team I worked motorcycle tech line for 4 years and automotive tech line for 12 years. That was over 25 years ago. We fixed several motorcycles and cars for local dealers in our shop. We also went to dealers to fix vehicles they couldn’t fix and one time I went to a customers home in Texas to fix their car. Looks like its not like that now.

 

[hondabob]

Forgot my buddies 2019 Talon with around 3,200 miles with a front U-joint failure.

 

[Doogle]

Well, I was one of those questioning the tack welds but I will give you the info anyway

1.25" tubing Spicer 10-26-37
1.75" tubing Spicer 10-28-97 or Neapco 10-2817

Found some PTO Weld Yokes that may work for the stock tubing (not sure about the wall thickness on stock tubing)...
Neapco NOE-04-6016-A made for 1.5" tube with .065 wall
Neapco NOE-04-2108-A made for 1.5" tube with .083 wall

Also, note: I just discovered the series 1000 joints used for the Talon were only used in a driveline back in the 70's and only on one vehicle for a couple years. Now they are mainly (only?) used for steering columns in large trucks. This may be the reason for the crappy tolerances in the yoke bores. Steering shafts don't spin fast or continuously so there is not really a need for close tolerances as the clips will suffice just fine in a steering column environment.

The sad part about tolerance is that it doesn't really take any more time to produce close fits. Quality control needs audit. I assume the poor fitting is in the yokes. A bearing manufacture would nearly never miss allowable tolerances.

 

[1HasBeen]

I'm sorry to derail things, but I think it bears pointing out what a driving force Soichiro Honda was. He was not a pencil pusher type, but an engineer, and a pragmatist, not to mention something of a philosopher. Always striving for excellence.

 

[Montecresto]

I'm sorry to derail things, but I think it bears pointing out what a driving force Soichiro Honda was. He was not a pencil pusher type, but an engineer, and a pragmatist, not to mention something of a philosopher. Always striving for excellence.

View attachment 275921 View attachment 275922

Yeah, but he’s gone......🤷‍♂️

 

[1HasBeen]

Yeah, but he’s gone......🤷‍♂️

... and apparently forgotten.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Seems like the business model for all SxS's is to build them as cheap as possible and charge as much as possible and see how the buying public reacts. Adjust accordingly.........

Think about what you can buy automotive wise for the same 20-30k you drop on any new SxS. Anybody feel like they got raped with no lube yet?

🤣

 

[PaulF]

More info for digestion. A fellow owner asked me to tack weld his driveline and what I discovered solidifies one of the theories about why/how these drivelines fail. This machine is a 2021 R and has less than 2,000 miles on it. Removing the driveline, I didn't feel anything out of the ordinary and everything looked and felt tight. BUT, upon further inspection after wiping off the dirt, I discovered the beginning of what I now believe is an eventual failure.

Honda puts paint marks on just about everything and the driveline is no exception. However, they only paint one cap on each end.

Rear yoke paint mark, everything looks normal...

Front is a different story. The paint marked cup has rotated (maybe others too but hard to tell). Not sure if it is just 1/8 turn or if it has gone around a few times. The cup was still tight in the yoke and the clip had not worn the yoke (YET). The joint and yokes are still good so I tacked welded all 8 cups. Catastrophe averted!!!...

My opinion after all this is that the press fit is too loose and allows the cups to spin. Eventually, this wears the clips into the yokes and causes them to break or come out and the failure occurs.

HONDA, ARE YOU LISTENING!!!

 

[hondabob]

Thanks Paul, great info. I have the skid plate off on my 2020 Talon so I will check the marks and add paint marks on the other bearing caps. I will be getting it spot welded in the future. I carry a Sawzall with two 8 inch blade so I can cut the drive shaft in half through the coolant drain hole in the skid plate. The cardboard inside the drive shaft may plug the blade. Some times we are way out plus there is 14 Talons in our ride group.

 

[bk5r]

Seems like a recall or class action suit is in order!

 

[hondabob]

I bought the Paint Marker at Ace Hardware. I will be checking the bearing caps frequently. I will get the caps spot welded in the future. My 2020 Talon has around 3,500 miles now.

 

[Tramguage1]

Can this spot welding be accomplished with the driveshaft in the machine?

 

[Montecresto]

Can this spot welding be accomplished with the driveshaft in the machine?

With difficulty……