Talon Front Driveline Woes

[PaulF]

There have been multiple reports of U-Joints on the Talon falling apart. I have now fallen victim to the problem but luckily caught it in the shop before it broke and not out on the trail. Many speculations such as missing clips, bad joints, etc. Instead of replacing the driveline and throwing the bad parts into the trash, the OCD side of me just had to find out WHY!!!

Since all the joints were still intact, I started by dismantling the problem joint and found what is most likely the issue. Here is what I discovered...

1. Out of 8 cups, 2 of them are loose in the yoke. So loose that the cups came out by hand after the dirt was removed. (I have not dismantled the other joints yet and may not at this time).
2. These 2 loose cups allowed the cross to move laterally about .100".
3. After removing the 2 cups, measuring and inspected it, I realized there is absolutely nothing wrong with the joint itself. it is still tight and full of grease.
4. Once I cleaned up the yoke, I found the problem and probably cause of failure.
   1. The series 1000 cups are .9375" and the effected bores in the yoke is ~.940. The bores do not appear to be worn, just too big for a proper interference fit. I noticed a similar "looseness" on another machine on one of the yokes although not as bad.
   2. The yoke is not spread, it is still 1.500" wide.
   3. The lateral movement of the cups have caused the harder clip material to wear out the yoke. This caused a grove and is where the lateral play is coming from (see pics below).
   4. Once that play become excessive enough, it either causes the cups to rotate enough for the clips to come out or enough "hammering" effect to break the clip.
   5. Once the clip comes off or breaks, the cup flies out and the damage continues.

Here are some thoughts and some pure SPECULATIONS...

• I am pretty certain that this is a tolerance issue and that the yokes do not start out that loose but some are loose enough from the factory to allow movement as the machine gets some miles on it. Once the movement starts, the damage is irreversible. Let it go long enough and the joint comes apart.
• New drivelines with as little as a few hundred miles have failed while some with 10,000 miles have not. This appears to be a manufacturing tolerance and/or QC issue.
• I have been checking my joints every few rides and just now discovered the movement, they were tight 2 or 3 rides ago. It seems it took about 3 rides (300 miles) for the movement to create the .050" wear so once the movement starts, it is not very long before the clip fails and the cup falls out.
• Although the series 1000 joints used on many SxS's are really made for steering shafts and not driveshafts, the factory joints are very high quality, sealed units. They have the good metal over rubber seals and should last 15,000 miles or more.
• Sealed, metal over rubber series 1000 joints are very hard to find so I put greaseable joints with crappy seals on another machine and after some research am now regretting that decision. I will be replacing those with sealed, higher quality joints in the near future.
• The drive shaft is 1.5" in diameter but there is no such thing as a 1.5" replacement yoke or driveline tubing. The only alternative is to go to 1.25" or 1.75" complete replacement shaft to see if the Spicer or Neapco yokes are any better quality.
• I will need to get a new driveline at this point. I can probably weld/grind the worn clip area and peen the bore smaller and tack weld the cups in on this one and "fix" it as a spare but not sure I can trust it for more than a short term backup unit.
• Regardless what I end up with, I will be tack welding ALL the cups in (even a brand new unit). I just do not trust these yokes!

These grooves are .050" deep on each side of the yoke causing the joint to have .100" lateral movement.

Although not as clear, this pic angle shows just how deep this groove became in a short period of time...

 

[Admin]

 

[Montecresto]

There have been multiple reports of U-Joints on the Talon falling apart. I have now fallen victim to the problem but luckily caught it in the shop before it broke and not out on the trail. Many speculations such as missing clips, bad joints, etc. Instead of replacing the driveline and throwing the bad parts into the trash, the OCD side of me just had to find out WHY!!!

Since all the joints were still intact, I started by dismantling the problem joint and found what is most likely the issue. Here is what I discovered...

1. Out of 8 cups, 2 of them are loose in the yoke. So loose that the cups came out by hand after the dirt was removed. (I have not dismantled the other joints yet and may not at this time).
2. These 2 loose cups allowed the cross to move laterally about .100".
3. After removing the 2 cups, measuring and inspected it, I realized there is absolutely nothing wrong with the joint itself. it is still tight and full of grease.
4. Once I cleaned up the yoke, I found the problem and probably cause of failure.
   1. The series 1000 cups are .9375" and the effected bores in the yoke is ~.940. The bores do not appear to be worn, just too big for a proper interference fit. I noticed a similar "looseness" on another machine on one of the yokes although not as bad.
   2. The yoke is not spread, it is still 1.500" wide.
   3. The lateral movement of the cups have caused the harder clip material to wear out the yoke. This caused a grove and is where the lateral play is coming from (see pics below).
   4. Once that play become excessive enough, it either causes the cups to rotate enough for the clips to come out or enough "hammering" effect to break the clip.
   5. Once the clip comes off or breaks, the cup flies out and the damage continues.

Here are some thoughts and some pure SPECULATIONS...

• I am pretty certain that this is a tolerance issue and that the yokes do not start out that loose but some are loose enough from the factory to allow movement as the machine gets some miles on it. Once the movement starts, the damage is irreversible. Let it go long enough and the joint comes apart.
• New drivelines with as little as a few hundred miles have failed while some with 10,000 miles have not. This appears to be a manufacturing tolerance and/or QC issue.
• I have been checking my joints every few rides and just now discovered the movement, they were tight 2 or 3 rides ago. It seems it took about 3 rides (300 miles) for the movement to create the .050" wear so once the movement starts, it is not very long before the clip fails and the cup falls out.
• Although the series 1000 joints used on many SxS's are really made for steering shafts and not driveshafts, the factory joints are very high quality, sealed units. They have the good metal over rubber seals and should last 15,000 miles or more.
• Sealed, metal over rubber series 1000 joints are very hard to find so I put greaseable joints with crappy seals on another machine and after some research am now regretting that decision. I will be replacing those with sealed, higher quality joints in the near future.
• The drive shaft is 1.5" in diameter but there is no such thing as a 1.5" replacement yoke or driveline tubing. The only alternative is to go to 1.25" or 1.75" complete replacement shaft to see if the Spicer or Neapco yokes are any better quality.
• I will need to get a new driveline at this point. I can probably weld/grind the worn clip area and peen the bore smaller and tack weld the cups in on this one and "fix" it as a spare but not sure I can trust it for more than a short term backup unit.
• Regardless what I end up with, I will be tack welding ALL the cups in (even a brand new unit). I just do not trust these yokes!

These grooves are .050" deep on each side of the yoke causing the joint to have .100" lateral movement.
View attachment 270785

Although not as clear, this pic angle shows just how deep this groove became in a short period of time...

View attachment 270793

What’s the best/easiest way to check and keep an eye on this?

 

[PaulF]

What’s the best/easiest way to check and keep an eye on this?

The rear is easy, just reach down in front of the Sub-Transmission and feel the joint for movement.
The front not so easy. You can see it with the hood off but probably won't be able to reach it. If you have long skinny arms, you might be able to get to it from the driver's fender after removing the tire.

If you feel any movement, pull the skids and check closer. If the cups move in the yoke, the yokes are junk and the shaft must be replaced soon to avoid the inevitable failure. If the cups are tight but the joint is bad, you can replace the joints.

Regardless of how tight the cups are, I suggest 2 tiny tack welds on each cup to make sure they never start to move. Hell, these yokes are $hit so I suggest everyone remove their driveline and tack the cups, even if they appear tight.

 

[Dankathy]

Maybe some loctite 609 in addition to the tack welds?

 

[PaulF]

Maybe some loctite 609 in addition to the tack welds?

Probably a good idea!
Or some 680 for even more shear strength (2300 vs. 4000).
Or some 660 if the press fit is gone. It will fill gaps up to .002".

And then some spit, chewing gum, duct tape and bailing wire for good measure !

 

[906UP]

I'm bringing a Moog 338 and my little mig welder, just in case. Maybe I should get another. I figure if I have a failure I can cobble it together to get trough the Takeover and worry about a better fix later.

 

[Hometeam]

The rear is easy, just reach down in front of the Sub-Transmission and feel the joint for movement.
The front not so easy. You can see it with the hood off but probably won't be able to reach it. If you have long skinny arms, you might be able to get to it from the driver's fender after removing the tire.

If you feel any movement, pull the skids and check closer. If the cups move in the yoke, the yokes are junk and the shaft must be replaced soon to avoid the inevitable failure. If the cups are tight but the joint is bad, you can replace the joints.

Regardless of how tight the cups are, I suggest 2 tiny tack welds on each cup to make sure they never start to move. Hell, these yokes are $hit so I suggest everyone remove their driveline and tack the cups, even if they appear tight.

So just to clarify, when I bought a new driveshaft and tack welded the cups, you think I am gtg with your findings?

 

[Ugly]

Great investigative work. Very comprehensive and a lot of good tips for prevention before failure for Talon owners. Thanks so much for your hard work.

 

[PaulF]

I'm bringing a Moog 338 and my little mig welder, just in case. Maybe I should get another. I figure if I have a failure I can cobble it together to get trough the Takeover and worry about a better fix later.

If you have a spare joint, you should be able to get it centered up and welded in even if the yoke is loose as long as the yoke is not destroyed.

I can't get a new driveline shipped before my next ride so I just "repaired" the trashed yoke shown in post #1. I filled in and ground down the groves (leaving a little extra to make the cups tight), pressed it all back together and put 4 spot welds on the previously loose caps and 2 on the other 6 caps to get me by. It is probably better than OEM .

FYI, I prefer the Neapco 1-0170NPL for direct replacement. They are sealed (non-greaseable) units with the better seals. They are (near) identical to the factory U-Joint. Non-greaseable joints are stronger, have better seals and never need greasing. If you can keep them in the yoke, they will probably outlast the machine.

Greaseable joints MUST be periodically greased. With aftermarket skids and side rock guards, this is a total pain and for me I most likely would not service them properly and they would go bad faster than a non-greaseable set anyway.

 

[PaulF]

So just to clarify, when I bought a new driveshaft and tack welded the cups, you think I am gtg with your findings?

View attachment 270830

In my opinion, this will make the OEM driveline last a long time. This is EXACTLY what I am going to do to my new unit as soon as it arrives. If the joints are

But first (in the name of discovery) I am actually going to dismantle my brand new driveline and "test" the press fit and measure the bores. I want to see if they have a correct press fit when new and enlarge because they are too weak for the intended use or if they are just loose to begin with.

 

[hondabob]

Great Info Paul. My drive shaft with over 15,000 miles on it is the video and you can see the C clip has worn into the yoke and the bearing cup is loose. I'm inspecting the replacement drive shaft that failed in around 2,000 miles with 2 bearing Cups missing, I may get the drive shaft with 3,200 miles on it with one front U-joint bearing cup missing. The 2021 Talon also has one rear bearing cup missing at around 200 miles. I will post pictures so we can see any yoke wear from the C clip. It really does Suck to see this quality control problem and especially with the 2021 Talon. It looks like a loose bearing cup is for sure one problem and maybe a missing or miss installed C clip may also be a problem. I'm putting together a kit for field fix, we have around 20 Talons in our riding group and have a ride every Tuesday. We are welding the U-joints on the 2021 Talon before my dealer installs the warranty drive shaft. I will post pictures of that next week. We are taking both U-joints apart for inspection and to make up some field repair kits. This is 3 Talons with a drive shaft failure in our riding group. The guys are NOT HAPPY. Hopefully I will get 2 more drive shafts for inspection and will for sure get some pictures of the failed U-joints.

 

[CID]

Thinking out loud here so ...

As a wannabe welder, I can’t count the number of carefully fitted parts I made that became unusable because of weld shrinkage - all welds shrink and I didn’t know that at the time. I wonder if one or two beads run around the end of the yolk could pull that diameter down enough to tighten on the caps (180* welds, like adding tread to a 1/2 a tire)? The yolk ‘cap’ looks to be about 10 mm thick and I have no idea if a couple of beads could pull that thickness tighter.

It would also be difficult, at best, to control the amount of shrinkage.

 

[Doogle]

This is the first I've heard about the U-joint problem. Sure hate the thought of welding newish parts on a near new machine. Mine is in Phoenix and I won't see it for another 6 months.

I hope there is another possible solution before I can examine mine. The thought of welding on caps that have close tolerances doesn't seem like a good patch. You may be deforming the diameter of the caps and probably reducing the hardness of the surface the bearings run on. Has anyone communicated with Honda about this issue? Yokes and ball joints have been around a long time, dealing with more torque and RPM's than these machines produce. What is different about this application? And it does sound like it is more than an isolated event.

 

[PaulF]

This is the first I've heard about the U-joint problem. Sure hate the thought of welding newish parts on a near new machine. Mine is in Phoenix and I won't see it for another 6 months.

I hope there is another possible solution before I can examine mine. The thought of welding on caps that have close tolerances doesn't seem like a good patch. You may be deforming the diameter of the caps and probably reducing the hardness of the surface the bearings run on. Has anyone communicated with Honda about this issue? Yokes and ball joints have been around a long time, dealing with more torque and RPM's than these machines produce. What is different about this application? And it does sound like it is more than an isolated event.

Not sure where you have been for the past year but U-Joint failures are all over every forum, YouTube, Facebook, etc. It is a well know issue, Honda has replaced many drivelines under warranty. Some with 15,000 miles and others with only a few hundred. @hondabob has gone through 2 and there are more in his riding group (one of them on a 2021 with 200 miles). There are multiple reports of a replacement driveline lasting only a few hundred miles. It is to the point where I think it is a problem so that is why I dove into it and will continue to do some testing, even on a brand new shaft when it arrives.

Tack welding U-Joint caps is nothing new, folks have been doing it for many, many years without any ill effects. I have even seen cups welded all the way around but I would never recommend that.

If you are concerned with heat, you can always try machining the yokes for full circle clips and add the appropriate Loctite. Problem with full circle clips on the 1000 series is they are still not full circle because the way the yoke is cast/machined (area with red arrows is lower and the clips will not contact there) but you will gain about 50% more clip contact with full circle. OEM clip only touches where the green arrows are (about 50% contact) but if you machine out the blue area and use full circle clips, you will get about 75% contact. If you build up/machine where the red arrows are and machine where the blue arrows are, you will get 100% clip contact. Not really worth the trouble in my opinion, I would just tack weld the caps and be done with it...

 

[PaulF]

One more thing about tack welding the cups that I forgot to mention that is really important.

ALWAYS attach your welder's ground clamp to the yoke you are welding on (this means moving the ground clamp as you weld different cups). NEVER try to pull ground through the joint itself (for instance, ground attached to the shaft while welding a cup on the slip yoke) or you may cause damage to the cups, needle bearings and/or the cross.

 

[hondabob]

All the companies monitor the forums. Its a great source of information, customer complaints, and problems. Polaris has Frank helping out. When the Can-Am turbo came out one of the engineers came on the forum and gave out some good info and answered some questions.

Honda should send Paul a new drive shaft for his failure info. The drive shaft vendor needs to scrap all the yokes that don't have a proper press fit. A loose bearing cup will fail early. One of the guys on the forum did a careful break in then run up to 60 mph and had the bearing cap come out. I'm doing another oil change now and will check for damage from the Bearing Cup turning into a bullet.

I expect lots of failures in the future and its not fun driving with two bearing caps missing. I had to drive 6 miles at 10 mph. It didn't matter if I was in 2WD or 4WD the banging was the same. You can see the damage to the yoke, I expect I could have driven several miles before a complete failure. It wasn't a fun day. I had my Yamaha YXZ for a back up ride. It ran perfect all morning then after lunch it started up and would only run on two cylinders. I had to trailer it home. I expect a coil failed but won't have time to fix it until next month.

I looked at the failed front U-joint with 3,200 miles on it today. I may get it if Honda doesn't call it in. I will clean it up and take it apart for inspection and some better pictures. The opposite side bearing cap is loose and it looks like the C clip had worn into the yoke.

 

[hondabob]

All the companies monitor the forums. Its a great source of information, customer complaints, and problems. Polaris has Frank helping out. When the Can-Am turbo came out one of the engineers came on the forum and gave out some good info and answered some questions.

Honda should send Paul a new drive shaft for his failure info. The drive shaft vendor needs to scrap all the yokes that don't have a proper press fit. A loose bearing cup will fail early. One of the guys on the forum did a careful break in then run up to 60 mph and had the bearing cap come out. I'm doing another oil change now and will check for damage from the Bearing Cup turning into a bullet.

I expect lots of failures in the future and its not fun driving with two bearing caps missing. I had to drive 6 miles at 10 mph. It didn't matter if I was in 2WD or 4WD the banging was the same. You can see the damage to the yoke, I expect I could have driven several miles before a complete failure. It wasn't a fun day. I had my Yamaha YXZ for a back up ride. It ran perfect all morning then after lunch it started up and would only run on two cylinders. I had to trailer it home. I expect a coil failed but won't have time to fix it until next month.

I looked at the failed front U-joint with 3,200 miles on it today. I may get it if Honda doesn't call it in. I will clean it up and take it apart for inspection and some better pictures. The opposite side bearing cap is loose and it looks like the C clip had worn into the yoke.

 

[Ugly]

Not sure where you have been for the past year but U-Joint failures are all over every forum, YouTube, Facebook, etc. It is a well know issue, Honda has replaced many drivelines under warranty. Some with 15,000 miles and others with only a few hundred. @hondabob has gone through 2 and there are more in his riding group (one of them on a 2021 with 200 miles). There are multiple reports of a replacement driveline lasting only a few hundred miles. It is to the point where I think it is a problem so that is why I dove into it and will continue to do some testing, even on a brand new shaft when it arrives.

Tack welding U-Joint caps is nothing new, folks have been doing it for many, many years without any ill effects. I have even seen cups welded all the way around but I would never recommend that.

If you are concerned with heat, you can always try machining the yokes for full circle clips and add the appropriate Loctite. Problem with full circle clips on the 1000 series is they are still not full circle because the way the yoke is cast/machined (area with red arrows is lower and the clips will not contact there) but you will gain about 50% more clip contact with full circle. OEM clip only touches where the green arrows are (about 50% contact) but if you machine out the blue area and use full circle clips, you will get about 75% contact. If you build up/machine where the red arrows are and machine where the blue arrows are, you will get 100% clip contact. Not really worth the trouble in my opinion, I would just tack weld the caps and be done with it...


View attachment 270968

PaulF would it be possible to use dykem metal marker to see if ther is any movement

Not sure where you have been for the past year but U-Joint failures are all over every forum, YouTube, Facebook, etc. It is a well know issue, Honda has replaced many drivelines under warranty. Some with 15,000 miles and others with only a few hundred. @hondabob has gone through 2 and there are more in his riding group (one of them on a 2021 with 200 miles). There are multiple reports of a replacement driveline lasting only a few hundred miles. It is to the point where I think it is a problem so that is why I dove into it and will continue to do some testing, even on a brand new shaft when it arrives.

Tack welding U-Joint caps is nothing new, folks have been doing it for many, many years without any ill effects. I have even seen cups welded all the way around but I would never recommend that.

If you are concerned with heat, you can always try machining the yokes for full circle clips and add the appropriate Loctite. Problem with full circle clips on the 1000 series is they are still not full circle because the way the yoke is cast/machined (area with red arrows is lower and the clips will not contact there) but you will gain about 50% more clip contact with full circle. OEM clip only touches where the green arrows are (about 50% contact) but if you machine out the blue area and use full circle clips, you will get about 75% contact. If you build up/machine where the red arrows are and machine where the blue arrows are, you will get 100% clip contact. Not really worth the trouble in my opinion, I would just tack weld the caps and be done with it...


View attachment 270968

PaulF would it be possible to use Dykem market between the cups and the yoke to more easily see movement or breaking of the clips duirng a visual inspection? Just a thought. Thanks

 

[PaulF]

PaulF would it be possible to use Dykem market between the cups and the yoke to more easily see movement or breaking of the clips duirng a visual inspection? Just a thought. Thanks

You could but that is not really going to do any good. It's not "If" the cups start to move but "when". Problem is, once the Dykem marker tells you there is movement, it is too late and your driveshaft is junk. It won't help you prevent the problem/damage.

The goal here is to stop the cups from moving in the first place. The only simple way I can see doing that with the crap OEM yokes is to tack weld the cups.

You can get a new driveline built with some good Spicer or Neapco yokes but that still leaves the front and rear slip yokes, They are specialty items and according to some photos, the cups loosen up in those too so someone would need to machine up some proper slip yokes too. A complete new (non OEM) driveline is going to get expensive. Again, this leads to "tack weld the cups" until Honda figures out a fix or the aftermarket produces a better driveline.

 

[Smitty335]

You could but that is not really going to do any good. It's not "If" the cups start to move but "when". Problem is, once the Dykem marker tells you there is movement, it is too late and your driveshaft is junk. It won't help you prevent the problem/damage.

The goal here is to stop the cups from moving in the first place. The only simple way I can see doing that with the crap OEM yokes is to tack weld the cups.

You can get a new driveline built with some good Spicer or Neapco yokes but that still leaves the front and rear slip yokes, They are specialty items and according to some photos, the cups loosen up in those too so someone would need to machine up some proper slip yokes too. A complete new (non OEM) driveline is going to get expensive. Again, this leads to "tack weld the cups" until Honda figures out a fix or the aftermarket produces a better driveline.

This has Honda recall written all over it?