Ethanol free gas, overkill?

bumperm

bumperm

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With all the talk re ethanol in fuel, no one has brought up the subject of hydrocarbon utilizing microorganisms (HUMS). HUMS can cause problems, especially in fuel systems low throughput. HUMS live in the hydrocarbon/water interface (another reason ethanol is so bad), where the HUMS break down the hydrocarbons and leave behind mineralized material than can block fuel filters etc.

A product called Biobor prevents the growth of HUMS and is certified for use in Jet fuel for that reason. It also works in gasoline, though it is not certified for such use in aircraft.

HUMS are normally not a problem in gasoline fuel systems that get a lot of use.
 
Mopower58

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Ethanol free 87 here. It's only about 30cents a gallon more expensive than 87 with ethanol.We buy it 5 gallons at the time. Use it in the tiller,Pioneer,generator,chain saws,Honda water pump,zero turn,pressure washer. A few of those sit up a lot. I have had to replace carbs and lines in the past due to ethanol use.
 
Mopower58

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I only run ethanol free fuel in my gas engine power equipment. Handheld trimmers, chainsaws, cultivator, mowers, SxS, dirt bikes, boat engines, etc. If you have all steel fuel lines and no other rubber parts in your fuel system then ethanol would probably be ok but it’s still going to attract moisture and create rust if left sitting for a long period. Any rubber in the fuel system and it will eventually dry rot it out. Happened to me in a mower when they first started putting ethanol in the gas. Never a single issue for many years, used ethanol gas for a season then the next season I went to prime it and gas started leaking out everywhere. Dry rotted and cracked the fuel line. Easy fix but I never ran ethanol gas in that mower or anything else again and not a single issue since.

In my opinion, if you have non-ethanol gas available at your local stations then use it. If you have to run ethanol fuel, then run an ethanol fuel treatment additive just to be safe. It’s cheap insurance.

It’s the same issue with Diesel engines and the “ultra low sulfur” fuel. Ultra low sulfur might be better for the environment, but it’s horrible on diesel fuel pumps and injectors because the sulfur is what gives Diesel fuel its lubrication properties. Will my Diesel engines run the normal fuel by itself? Well sure, but I know it’s better if I run additives that increase cetane levels and add lubricity so my pumps and injectors have a much longer and healthier lifespan. Costs more to run additives in every tank but it’s a lot cheaper than replacing injectors or a fuel pump.
When I worked on diesels regularly, I always recommended Diesel Kleene in the silver bottle. It added lubricity and upped the cetane value in diesel. Normally it upped the fuel mileage enough to pay for itself. Standadyne also offers a diesel additive. On 6.9's and 7.3's with an injection pump, the low sulfur diesel would dry out the governor weights and cause them to stick causing the engines to die at an idle.
 
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Danno357

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Ethanol free in all of my small engines especially two stroke. I run regular unleaded (up to 10%) ethanol in it daily drivers. When ethanol sits and evaporates, it always causes issues. Great example is ice auger two stroke. Ethanol will clog those carb jets the instant it hits over 80 in my shed. Like many have said, about $.30-.50 per gallon is cheap insurance in the long run.
 
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Hwysupr

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I don't like ethanol as it has plenty of time to prove it is worth it or not without us paying to subsidize it. However, I'm a tight ass and figure if I want to get some of my money back the government spends to subsidize it I'll use the cheaper fuel. Have run ethanol in everything from weed eaters to pickup trucks since if first came out in the 70's and have never had a problem with anything. Have had things sit up for months and never a problem starting.
 
PJon

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All my vehicles run on 87 octane With up to 10% ethanol. Two of my cars recommend premium, but they never get it. I really don’t need the extra 5 hp that might be available at higher rpm’s. All modern day vehicles are designed to run on fuel with a certain amount of ethanol and the fuel systems are designed to eliminate pinging through the computers. Why anyone would want to waste their money on premium fuels is beyond me.
 
bumperm

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The misinformation in the thread is simply mind blowing!!!

Not saying everything here is correct, though it would be more helpful if you were specific about what you take issue with - I don't think anyone here wants to see your mind blow up. :) Though, having been through the FBI bomb school, I know there are few problems in life that cannot be fixed with the judicious application of the proper explosives.
 
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Gregra44

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Whatever octane the manual says. And only gas labeled Top Tier rated fuel for sufficient detergent additives. It's been at least 10 years since I last had any carb or injector issue on anything burning gas. My 500 drinks 87 octane / 10 % ethanol. It runs year round, including ice fishing in northern Minnesota on 0W40 synthetic. Starts & runs fine, no fuel line freeze.
 
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PaulF

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Not saying everything here is correct, though it would be more helpful if you were specific about what you take issue with - I don't think anyone here wants to see your mind blow up. :) Though, having been through the FBI bomb school, I know there are few problems in life that cannot be fixed with the judicious application of the proper explosives.
Oh, I just wouldn't know where to start. Lets see...

In your opinions is ethanol free gas overkill, especially if your machine is out on the trail weekly?
First off to answer the OP's question. E0 for you riding weekly is a total waste of money as is anything over 86 octane. I will explain as best I can below.

Also, please note that all info below is related to a stock Talon (and maybe a P-1000 to some extent) and only applies to Top Tier fuels only (unless otherwise specified).

I’d run E-0 if I could find it but I can’t. Colorado was one of the first states to mandate ethanol fuels way back in 1988 If I remember correctly. :mad:
E0 is available in all 50 states. Try this resource...
However, I am very suspect of many of the E0 fuels because a Top Tier E10 is much better than any Lower Tier fuel, including E0 and most of the E0 fuel I see is not branded.

And be VERY careful, I pulled into a Brand Name Station that sells E0 but the E0 pump does not display the Brand logo and as far as I can tell, that particular brand no longer makes "Conventional" fuels so I am pretty sure it is not branded fuel, it is some cheap unbranded crap. Although there may be others, the only branded E0 I can find is Shell so almost everything else is unbranded crap.

Why am I so down on unbranded fuels? Sometimes it is just fine, other times it is not and you can't tell when so I NEVER use unbranded fuels.

If you run your motors several hours weekly no need to run ethanol free. BUT if you let it sit for a week or more it’s worth every penny you spend! I also add fuel stabilizer (SEA FOAM) if setting for couple weeks or more. A ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure!🤔
This is good advice but complete overkill. E10 is stable for 3 months and E0 for 6 months (yes, even E0 breaks down). If your machine sits for more than 2 months, use E0 OR a good fuel stabilizer (no need for both). If your machine sits for more than 5 months, use either gas AND a stabilizer.

More to come!
 
PaulF

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I always run ethanol free that way if it sits in the gas tank awhile I don't have to worry about.
I also add Heet gas treatment the red bottle it removes moisture from the gas as well as helps keep the fuel lines clean.
Why would anyone go to the time/trouble/expense to procure E0 then purposely put alcohol in it??? ISO-HEET is 98% isopropanol and isopropanol is way worse on rubber than Ethanol.

HEET products use alcohol to absorb the moisture in the tank, mix it with the gas and burn it. It does the exact same thing that Ethanol does.

Another misconception, Ethanol does not (cannot) reach out into the air and grab moisture and pull it into your tank, this is a complete wives tale. Any alcohol can absorb/mix with moisture that it comes in contact with and in turn mix it with the fuel and burn it.

If you have water in your gas tank, you have other problems that need to addressed and E10 is the least of your worries. As a matter of fact, E10 will help remove the water from your tank, not add to it.
 
PaulF

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I prefer non ethanol gas because it attracts less water and where I live 100% humidity is common. The Heet is for extra water in the gas and a cleaning agent to maintain performance. Never worry about gas in the tank for long periods of time.
Alcohol (including Ethanol) does not "attract" moisture, that is a complete wives tale. If it were true, HEET would attract moisture too so your analogy doesn't make any sense. HEET is 98% alcohol so if "removes" water then so does Ethanol but that is not how the chemistry works. See my last post, alcohol does not "remove" anything, it mixes with the water and fuel and burns it.

So, whatever you think Ethanol does (or doesn't do) to your fuel system, HEET is doing the same thing. You are making your own EX fuel and it is costing you a fortune.

The "other" additives in HEET are so minimal, they do nothing. A good Top Tier E10 fuel is superior to unbranded E0 with HEET added.
 
PaulF

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I've tried both in all my Hondas. Everyone of them run better on ethanol free. So that's what I stick with as much as possible.
Completely anecdotal.

I have tried 87, 91 octane E10 and 91 octane E0 in my Talon. E10/87 runs the best and coolest of them all so that is what I stick with. And of course, this is also completely anecdotal too. BUT, here are some testing and facts that back this up...

I have a PV3 with a wideband and the logs from hard runs at the dunes show that...
91/E0 runs a little too rich and cause a slight power loss for me at my altitude.
91/E0 tends to run a little hotter.
91/E10 AFR is good and runs just fine but there is no perceivable difference in the way it runs.
87/E10 AFR is about right for my liking.

Using non-oxygenated fuels (like E0) will cause the Talon to run slight richer than intended and may cause a slight loss of power. Ethanol also runs cooler so E10 tends to run cooler.

Here are some reasons...

The Talon is designed/tuned to run on E10/86. E10 fuel is "oxygenated" meaning it has more oxygen content. Because the Talon is "open loop" (except for idle) and uses fuel tables for A/F mixture (NOT the O2 sensor like most modern cars). It only uses the O2 for idle and does not utilize a knock sensor. The Talon's EFI and Spark are not very sophisticated at all, nothing like a modern car, more like a glorified carburetor. Hate to say it but the Talon's engine controls are pretty archaic. With those basic controls come limited engine management.

There is also some very misleading info that makes some believe that E10 has 30% less power. But the fact is that Ethanol has 30% less power that gasoline but at a 10% mixture E10 has a 3% less energy coefficient. IF the Talon used a full fuel feedback, E0 would produce more power but because it uses static fuel and timing maps tuned to E10/86. The Talon can't adjust for the difference in E0/91 so you don't get any more power and in some cases (like my altitude) end up losing a little power.

If you get a PV3 and make your own maps based on E0/91 at your altitude, you "might" be able to squeeze 3 or 4 HP out of the machine but you really need a dyno to get close then street tune it from there. Pretty expensive for a few HP.

Because the timing maps are static, anything over 86 octane in a stock (non-turbo) Talon is a waste of money. The stock engine/tune cannot make use of the slower burning higher octane fuel and may even cause a slight power loss because higher octane fuel burns slower and causes the combustion explosion to last longer but be less volatile to avoid knocking. Unless the engine and tune can utilize the slower burn, it costs money to run anything over 86 octane and can sometimes lead to less power.

You will see me say one thing over and over because I cannot stress this enough. Use only Top Tier fuel in your vehicles. You will pay a couple cents per gallon more but you will save on repairs and additional additives are not necessary. Top Tier fuels have additional additives in them to combat fuel/ethanol separation and fight corrosion, other fuels may not.
 
DavidBear

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I run regular ethanol free fall and winter, summer whatever is cheapest. small towns in Colorado still have some regular gas but front range metro not so much.
 
PaulF

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And here is my bad experience with top tier E10 over the years (including my mowers, trimmer, power washers, etc)...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, pretty much a snoozefest for me. Nothing to report and I NEVER use stabilizers.

Here is my experience with unbranded fuel (before and after 1988)...

I was in the fuel retail business (Chevron and Conoco) with a repair shop for MANY years beginning in 1975 and witnessed one thing over and over that proved to me it is not the type/blend/octane/etc. that make one fuel better than another but rather the brand. I learned to use only brand name (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips, Shell, etc. now known as "Top Tier") fuels (even as far back as the 1970's) in everything I own. A VAST majority of fuel related problems and repairs were from my customers that bought fuel at those "cheap" places. We have "Rainbow", "7-11", "Maverik" and a slew of other "no-name" stations all around us and these places were one of my best source of business. I sold fuel but (despite my advice) some of my customers (even good customers) would get their gas at the "cheaper" places to save a buck or 2 on each fill up and then spend hundreds (sometimes thousands) at my shop getting the problems these "cheap" fuels caused fixed. It was a hate/love relationship with these cut throat fuel stops. They killed my (low profit at the time) fuel business but gave me so much (high profit) repair work.

I have been running top tier E10 fuel in everything I own since it came out. Never been scared of it and never will be. Only thing I have ever noticed is that clear fuel line parts (like found on a weed trimmer) get hard/brittle but those items are not rubber, they are plastic and plastic hates alcohol so I just replaced them with rubber. I Even run E10 my 20+ year old carbureted riding mower that sits all winter without stabilizer. I have never messed with the carb on it or even changed the plugs and it starts up every time like it was brand new.

The only vehicle I have ever had any type of fuel problem with is my '07 Corvette. C6 Corvettes (and other GM vehicles of that era) are notorious for fuel gauge problems. The fuel gauge will stop reading every now and then because one of the tank sensors gets oxidized when it sits 6 to 9 months out of the year like mine (I put a whole 200 miles on it last year). I discovered "Techron for High Mileage Vehicles" (specifically formulated to clean fuel tank sensors). I put a bottle in at the beginning of each summer and the problem has not come back for a couple years. Never tried E0 in the Vette to fix the gauge but others say it doesn't help.

Nothing but Top Tier for me and nothing but good results.
 
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MTrockSlinger

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Only thing I will agree with @PaulF on is that ethanol fuel burns at a cooler temperature and you should also treat E0 gas when stored for very long periods of 6 months or more. I filtered out the rest.

I’ve seen too many issues with ethanol fuels up here in Montana with long winter storage periods on equipment. Ethan fuel is no good.

Funny thing he specifically states data that E0 is stable for over twice as long as E10 has but still keeps talking like ethanol fuel is just as good. Come on man!
 
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PaulF

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Only thing I will agree with @PaulF on is that ethanol fuel burns at a cooler temperature and you should also treat E0 gas when stored for very long periods of 6 months or more. I filtered out the rest.

I’ve seen too many issues with ethanol fuels up here in Montana with long winter storage periods on equipment. Ethan fuel is no good.

Funny thing he specifically states data that E0 is stable for over twice as long as E10 has but still keeps talking like ethanol fuel is just as good. Come on man!
You are generalizing what I said (and taking it completely out of context), I never said any such thing. OP asked if E0 was overkill and I said "yes" and gave a lot of very good facts and some personal experience as to why. I never said Top Tier E10 is better than Top Tier E0 (or vice versa), they both have their uses. What I did say is...
  • I answered the OP's question and stated that E0 is overkill/not needed for him because he drives his machine so often.
  • I said Top Tier E10 is better than Unbranded E0 because I believe from 45 years of experience in the fuel/repair industry that any Top Tier fuel is better than any Unbranded fuel, Ethanol or not. If you can find Top Tier E0, use it if you think Top Tier E10 is $hit. If you cannot find Top Tier E0, I suggest you steer clear of unbranded E0.
  • I said E0 (as long as it is Top Tier) can be advantageous in some cases but it is pretty rare.
 
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MTrockSlinger

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You are generalizing what I said (and taking it completely out of context), I never said any such thing. OP asked if E0 was overkill and I said "yes" and gave a lot of very good facts and some personal experience as to why. I never said Top Tier E10 is better than Top Tier E0 (or vice versa), they both have their uses. What I did say is...
  • I answered the OP's question and stated that E0 is overkill/not needed for him because he drives his machine so often.
  • I said Top Tier E10 is better than Unbranded E0 because I believe from 45 years of experience in the fuel/repair industry that any Top Tier fuel is better than any Unbranded fuel, Ethanol or not. If you can find Top Tier E0, use it if you think Top Tier E10 is $hit. If you cannot find Top Tier E0, I suggest you steer clear of unbranded E0.
  • I said E0 (as long as it is Top Tier) can be advantageous in some cases but it is pretty rare.

Well dang! You could have just posted that message alone and saved us all some time. Lol! 😉 Thanks for clearing that up.

I agree on top tier fuels as well, especially important in Diesel engines.
 
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