Ethanol free gas, overkill?

[bumperm]

So if switching from E0 to E10 is so bad, why didn't millions of car engines, that had up till then been using E0, grind to a varnished halt when the US made the change to E10 in 2005 -2007?

Prior to then, I had been using premium E0 in my self-launch glider (Stemme S10-VT), I would check for ethanol by filling a test tube to about 10% full, then top it up with the fuel. Shake, wait a few moments. If there was alcohol present the "apparent" water line would go up as the ethanol would come out of solution in the gasoline, as it has a greater affinity to water.

I got lazy and didn't check one time. The station had switched to E10 and I put a load of that in the glider. Carbs got near instantly mucked up as the ethanol attacked the 3M sloshing compound use to seal the carbon fiber fuel tanks. What a mess.

E10 (or whatever) is a screw job on the the consumer.

 

[PaulF]

@PaulF

So what causes the whitish crystallization I've seen hundred of times in the many carbs I've taken apart and cleaned? Is it the ethanol corroding the aluminum parts in the fuel system or something else?


BTW... Excellent explanation in your above post about the water myths. Alot of people mistake the fact that ethanol attracts and mixes with water as "becomes water". If there is no moisture in the system to start with, there is no chance of it attracting or mixing with the moisture.

I have encountered that white, powdery crystallization on aluminum carb parts since I started turning wrenches back in the 1970's so it cannot be the Ethanol. There are a lot of chemicals that corrode aluminum but pure alcohol is not one of them. The solvents in engine degreaser on the other hand can corrode aluminum in minutes.

The corrosion can be caused by (bad) fuel additives but it is most likely simply water corrosion. Water has made it way to the carb and sat, causing the corrosion.

Does alcohol contribute to this problem? It might under some circumstances. For instance, if water laden alcohol gets hot enough (or sits long enough to evaporate) then the water is left behind stays because it needs a higher temperature to evaporate. If that water stays on the aluminum long enough, it will corrode.

Again, if you have water in your fuel system in sufficient quantities that the Ethanol is absorbing it and transporting it to the carb, there are other problems with that vehicle that need to be addressed.

 

[PJon]

It is physically impossible for any gasoline to "turn into water", even E85. Not even pure 100% Ethanol can magically "turn into water". Where does this BS come from??? Boggles the mind!!!

Lets get back to the facts...

A tank (~7 gallons) of E0 can suspend 1 teaspoon (.17 ounces) of water before phase separation (water particles start to combine and gets too heavy and drop to the bottom) but a tank of E10 can suspend up to 25 teaspoons (about 1/2 cup) before phase separation (Ethanol/water mixture gets too heavy and drops to the bottom). ALL fuel tanks condensate but E10 actually handles up to 25 time more condensation in a fuel tank than E0 by absorbing it and burning it through the combustion cycle. E10 phase separation can be more problematic that E0 but if 1/2 cup of water has made its way into your Talon's fuel tank between fill-ups, you got other (bigger) problems.

One of the biggest (and most misunderstood) problem with E10 is it cleans your fuel system because Ethanol is a solvent (and a damn good one at that). E10 will dissolve varnish and other solids that are caused by the gasoline (cleaning your fuel system can be good thing) but Ethanol dissolves these solids quickly and can sometimes dislodge small pieces of these solids. IF a dislodged particle is not fully dissolved by the time it reaches a small orifice (such as a fuel injector) it can restrict or clog it. This is why there are many stories like "I switched to E10 and now my gas powered whatever runs like crap (or doesn't run at all)". It's not the E10 making the engine run like crap, it is the deposits the E10 dislodged that were caused by the E0 that make it run like crap. The E10 cleaned out the fuel system "too fast".

So, if you use E0 most of the time and then throw in some E10 because you can't get E0, you are inviting trouble. Over time, that E0 can deposit varnish all through the fuel system and then the E10 (even just a few gallons) can dislodge it. The longer you run E0 and/or the more often it sits, the more varnish can form and the more susceptible the machine will be to this problem.

If you consistently use E0, then it is a good idea to NEVER use any E10. If you can guarantee you will never be in a position to have to use E10, then you can use E0 safely. However, if you use E0 for several years then have to "bum" some fuel on the trail because you are run out and all you can find is E10, you run the risk of trouble.

Conversely, if you consistently run E10 and run out and end up with some E0 for a tank, you are just fine as long as you go back to E10. 1 or 2 tanks of E0 will not form enough varnish deposits to cause a problem (as long as you don't leave it in there for a long time and let it sit). However, if the varnish reaches a certain point, you never want to go back to E10. So, before switching from long term E0 use to E10, you should verify there is no varnish or clean it out first.

Thanks for the clear explanation. As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, all I run in my vehicles is e10 87 octane or sometimes 86-85 at higher altitudes. All the small gas powered tools get the fuel shut off and the float bowls run dry before draining the remaining gas in the tank. I haven’t had to clean out a carburetor since the mid 90’s.

 

[HBarlow]

Ethanol is proven to absorb moisture which is probably the reason many think it turns to water. The fact that it absorbs moisture means it causes rust in fuel tanks and systems.

 

[Seadonist]

Ford is better than Chevy!!!


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[bumperm]

Ford is better than Chevy!!!


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Oh huh!

 

[Seadonist]

Just kidding, continue please


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[Dirtstiffs-1000]

Makes me want to siphon out all the non ethonal gas I use in everything, not.. I no longer put up with my tools getting f'..n.. gummed up from ethanol blended gas.
And all my corn farmer relation are dead and gone...

 

[Fischer]

It is physically impossible for any gasoline to "turn into water", even E85. Not even pure 100% Ethanol can magically "turn into water". Where does this BS come from??? Boggles the mind!!!

Lets get back to the facts...

A tank (~7 gallons) of E0 can suspend 1 teaspoon (.17 ounces) of water before phase separation (water particles start to combine and gets too heavy and drop to the bottom) but a tank of E10 can suspend up to 25 teaspoons (about 1/2 cup) before phase separation (Ethanol/water mixture gets too heavy and drops to the bottom). ALL fuel tanks condensate but E10 actually handles up to 25 time more condensation in a fuel tank than E0 by absorbing it and burning it through the combustion cycle. E10 phase separation can be more problematic that E0 but if 1/2 cup of water has made its way into your Talon's fuel tank between fill-ups, you got other (bigger) problems.

One of the biggest (and most misunderstood) problem with E10 is it cleans your fuel system because Ethanol is a solvent (and a damn good one at that). E10 will dissolve varnish and other solids that are caused by the gasoline (cleaning your fuel system can be good thing) but Ethanol dissolves these solids quickly and can sometimes dislodge small pieces of these solids. IF a dislodged particle is not fully dissolved by the time it reaches a small orifice (such as a fuel injector) it can restrict or clog it. This is why there are many stories like "I switched to E10 and now my gas powered whatever runs like crap (or doesn't run at all)". It's not the E10 making the engine run like crap, it is the deposits the E10 dislodged that were caused by the E0 that make it run like crap. The E10 cleaned out the fuel system "too fast".

So, if you use E0 most of the time and then throw in some E10 because you can't get E0, you are inviting trouble. Over time, that E0 can deposit varnish all through the fuel system and then the E10 (even just a few gallons) can dislodge it. The longer you run E0 and/or the more often it sits, the more varnish can form and the more susceptible the machine will be to this problem.

If you consistently use E0, then it is a good idea to NEVER use any E10. If you can guarantee you will never be in a position to have to use E10, then you can use E0 safely. However, if you use E0 for several years then have to "bum" some fuel on the trail because you are run out and all you can find is E10, you run the risk of trouble.

Conversely, if you consistently run E10 and run out and end up with some E0 for a tank, you are just fine as long as you go back to E10. 1 or 2 tanks of E0 will not form enough varnish deposits to cause a problem (as long as you don't leave it in there for a long time and let it sit). However, if the varnish reaches a certain point, you never want to go back to E10. So, before switching from long term E0 use to E10, you should verify there is no varnish or clean it out first.

Ok. Not trying to stir the pot, however, if e10 is all good why can't we run e15 in small engines, modern vehicles that are not flex fuel rated? (E15)?

 

[Fischer]

Ok. Not trying to stir the pot, however, if e10 is all good why can't we run e15 in small engines, modern vehicles that are not flex fuel rated? (E15)?

I guess I'm wondering why my snowblower and other vehicles other than flex fuel vehicles (e15) say not to run no more than e10 fuel? Because in my mind if this label is false than shouldn't every thing be able to run E15 safely?

 

[bumperm]

Just kidding, continue please


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So was I. I drive an FJ Cruiser and a Honda S2000 (which I fervently hope never becomes an off road vehicle).

 

[Seadonist]

So was I. I drive an FJ Cruiser and a Honda S2000 (which I fervently hope never becomes an off road vehicle).View attachment 281739

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[PaulF]

Ok. Not trying to stir the pot, however, if e10 is all good why can't we run e15 in small engines, modern vehicles that are not flex fuel rated? (E15)?

I guess I'm wondering why my snowblower and other vehicles other than flex fuel vehicles (e15) say not to run no more than e10 fuel? Because in my mind if this label is false than shouldn't every thing be able to run E15 safely?

That is a very good question. Actually, all 2001 and newer vehicles (even if not flex fuel rated) are approved (but not required) to use E15 per EPA...

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) defines E15 as gasoline blended with 10.5% to 15% ethanol. In 2011, EPA approved E15 for use in light-duty conventional vehicles of model year 2001 and newer, through a Clean Air Act waiver request, based on significant testing and research funded by the U.S. Department of Energy. Stations are not required to sell E15, but some have started offering E15 due to equipment grants and better profit margins when compared with regular gasoline. E15 is available in 30 states at just over 2,000 stations. E10 remains the limit for passenger vehicles older than model year 2001 and for other non-road and small engines and vehicles that use gasoline, such as lawn mowers, motorcycles, and boats.

Vehicles approved for E15 use:

• Flexible fuel vehicles
• Conventional vehicles of model year 2001 and newer.

Vehicles prohibited from using E15:

• All motorcycles
• All vehicles with heavy-duty engines, such as school buses and delivery trucks
• All off-road vehicles, such as boats and snowmobiles
• All engines in off-road equipment, such as chain saws and gasoline lawn mowers
• All conventional vehicles older than model year 2001.

Many in that "prohibited" list are fixed orifice, fixed fuel map (like the Talon) or OBD-I and may not be able properly compensate for the leaner mixture that >E10 causes. Leaner mixtures can cause higher emissions and engine damage so that list makes perfect sense if you look at it like that.

 

[Bobrhino]

Happy Independence Day!
Some “HEETED“ discussion going on. I can’t comment on some folks technical facts. I can say my experience in using E0 fuel is very good here in the southwest desert region, for a number of years. IMO it’s not overkill. About 30 cents more per gallon. Have successfully stored it for 1+ years, always with Star Tron additive. Used Sea Foam prior. E0 fuel in all small engines and toyhauler trailer fuel tanks.

A powersports rider for almost 65 years, an enthusiast for maybe 68 years, I’ve been around many 2 and 4 stroke bikes, small engines and such. Introduction of corn based fuel has been a nightmare to many, requiring fuel petcocks, lines to carburetors needing rebuild or replacement. I’ll spare you all my personal stories. Ask those in the recreational vehicle industry and see what answers you get. Generator fuel system repair is huge.

Sure, pre-ethanol fuel didn’t mean “no maintenance“, however fuel with ethanol will absolutely cause problems in comparative situations such as forgetting prompt placement of fuel additives, allowing float bowls to go dry and so much more. Actually additives aren’t a guarantee either, though it helps your fuel condition. For those of you that frequently run your motors and never forget doing so, don’t worry about it. Unfortunately for me, that’s not my category. Myself, I’ll continue supporting those that manufacture, distribute and sell E0, non-ethanol gasoline. Heck, my wife rarely serves me corn anymore. Says it’s no longer on her diet. Guess that means my diet as well😕

 

[HBarlow]

The EPA is not our friend. It is a leftist propaganda machine that spouts lies.

 

[all4sho]

i run ethanol free in all my machines, but mostly because they don't get used as much as the should and sit up alot

 

[Bobrhino]

Happy Independence Day!
Some “HEETED“ discussion going on. I can’t comment on some folks technical facts. I can say my experience in using E0 fuel is very good here in the southwest desert region, for a number of years. IMO it’s not overkill. About 30 cents more per gallon. Have successfully stored it for 1+ years, always with Star Tron additive. Used Sea Foam prior. E0 fuel in all small engines and toyhauler trailer fuel tanks.

A powersports rider for almost 65 years, an enthusiast for maybe 68 years, I’ve been around many 2 and 4 stroke bikes, small engines and such. Introduction of corn based fuel has been a nightmare to many, requiring fuel petcocks, lines to carburetors needing rebuild or replacement. I’ll spare you all my personal stories. Ask those in the recreational vehicle industry and see what answers you get. Generator fuel system repair is huge.

Sure, pre-ethanol fuel didn’t mean “no maintenance“, however fuel with ethanol will absolutely cause problems in comparative situations such as forgetting prompt placement of fuel additives, allowing float bowls to go dry and so much more. Actually additives aren’t a guarantee either, though it helps your fuel condition. For those of you that frequently run your motors and never forget doing so, don’t worry about it. Unfortunately for me, that’s not my category. Myself, I’ll continue supporting those that manufacture, distribute and sell E0, non-ethanol gasoline. Heck, my wife rarely serves me corn anymore. Says it’s no longer on her diet. Guess that means my diet as well😕

Oh by the way, Southern Nevada (greater Las Vegas area) is controlled by Clark County government and disallows E0 fuel. In fact so much that Maverick briefly had a station or two and another new location ready to open last year with dedicated ethanol free fuel nozzles. All E0 fuel was removed from ALL these location once the new station was ready for final inspection. Don’t know of any other available Nevada locations other than east of Reno, maybe. Now I must travel to various Utah locations or head down to Lake Havasu City AZ for my E0 fix.

Government does its best to let we the people know what we can/cannot have. As I previously said, I support those that promote E0 fuel, kinda right in there with 2nd amendment rights. Sorry, I’ll step down from my soap box now.

 

[Farmer]

I was running Casey's premium Ethanol free in everything but the cars. But then Casey's took it away so I emailed them. They claimed it was no longer available in the Midwest. So, if your in the "Midwest" and can't find ethanol free, do yourself and myself a favor....shoot them an email requesting it....

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[toy-hauler]

Here is an interesting test done by a guy on the same engines, and testing ethanol / non-ethanol fuel. Found no difference in carbon buildup, about the same head temp and 4% better efficiency on the ethanol.