P1000 Honda radiator Class Action Lawsuit

[Herbie]

They may not admit there is a problem, However, the old addage "Actions speak louder than words" applies here. The 2022 model has a completely redesigned fan blade and shroud along with a completely revised radiator. This fan looks more like the SPAL Curved blade fans that you see aftermarket companies selling. They had a problem, or they would not have changed the 2022.

Do you think the 2022 upgrades (fan, shroud, radiator) would fit on the older models? Anyone that has one maybe start getting dimensions and comparing to older models.

 

[Admin]

 

[lee]

Do you think the 2022 upgrades (fan, shroud, radiator) would fit on the older models? Anyone that has one maybe start getting dimensions and comparing to older models.

I would guess there are a lot of parts up there that are different to accommodate the new front plastic.
I would think your best bet (if you really need to do something) would be to install the Spall fan that (I heard) is a direct bolt in.
This should increase the air flow sufficiently to keep things cool at 10,000 foot altitude.

 

[Herbie]

Did some more testing today. Since I boiled out a couple of qts of Honda radiator fluid out last week, I have been waiting on more to come in, which it did today. Now, I am about 7700’ elevation, which is the lowest I will usually be.
I purchase this radiator burping funnel kit and was using it today.

I filled up radiator, and then about 1/3 of this jug. I clamped off the overflow hose, as coolant was always draining into it.
I also parked it in a ditch with the front end up about 30°.
Ambient temp is about 70°F
Started the engine, and let it run for a while until it heated up.
Oh, by the way. I also added a digital readout thermometer on the inlet hose of my radiator, so I can now read inlet and outlet radiator fluid temperatures.
So, as the inlet temperature began climbing, I was getting small small bubbles coming up from radiator cap, as I was hoping. Remember, the cooling system is not under pressure with this jug installed.
When the inlet temperature was getting about 207°F, the volume of fluid began increasing drastically in the container with engine running. First time, it came out of top of container, until I shut off engine, and it cooled back down and drained back into cooling system. I did this again and again, and each time I began to see the volume increase at around 206-207°F.
I am currently letting it cool back down, with 1/3 of jug filled with fluid, to keep air out of coolant system, and scratching my head.
I am in a learning mode now.
Does anyone know what the boiling point of Honda Type 2 coolant fluid is?
Apparently, at 7700’ elevation it is 206°F. Does that seem right?
At what temperatures do other brands and types of coolants boil (not under pressure)?
I need to go find some temperature and pressure curves on coolants and glycol and water.
Water boils at sea level at 212°F, so at 7700’ it boils at about 197°F.
So, apparently the Honda coolant boils at 206°F. I would have thought it would boil at a higher temp?
a
Anyway, I wanted to put my findings out here, and see if others with more knowledge can offer some good feedback.
My goal is to stop my machine from overheating.
And, if you think about it, my radiator is doing nothing at this time, other than cooling fluid down a few degrees (<5°F). So, the radiator nor the fan (which never came on during this testing) have anthing to do with this boiling temperature.
I will put radiator cap back on and see what temperature does, and let you know.

 

[brettc]

When the HondaSXS group road the Alpine loop from Silverton, CO in 2020, I was one of about 6 or so that had overheating issues, and most had not seen that problem before. Slow speed, long semi-steep inclines, and around 10,000 + ft elevations seems to be the key ingredients causing the overheating issues.

I've run that loop many times, but in a Nissan Xterra -- sometimes with others driving other Xterras. At the time, the xterra had a powerful V6 and a 5 speed automatic (stock). We could leave from Animas Forks, heading up Engineer Pass, 4wd and Hi Range -- you'd put it in limp mode nearly every time if you had a spirited driving style. So much slipping of the torque converter happens when driving slow and in high range. Owners with larger tire diameters and carrying a lot of cargo with stock gears were even more inclined heat up the transmission and go into limp mode. Transmission cooling was also done in the radiator. We quickly learned to put it in low range, get the rpms up, enjoy the ride and ease on up w/o issues. Engineer Pass is a pretty steep and long incline. I wonder if something similar is going on here, heavily loaded, slow going, overworking the machine? I know its a totally different drive train, just thought it was worth mentioning .... I don't think the Pioneer shifts in low range does it?

 

[brettc]

I just spent two weeks at our cabin in Colorado. Our riding starts at our cabin at 8000', and goes over 11,000' high. In all we rode about 250 miles, some brief but very steep climbs, a couple of miles straight across the scrub oak and sage brush following our water line, but mostly easy cattle rancher roads - plus a little bit of working in the mud after a heavy rain. My wife and I, two dogs, and about a half a bed full of gear. Never saw more than 2 bars.

 

[DG Rider]

I worked for HONDA for 25+ years. You hit the nail on the head. I worked with HONDA engineers on the first year model V45 Motorcycles that these brilliant but hard headed engineers said "did not have a Camshaft problem". I had one of these "perfect" motorcycles and once I finally proved to them that there was a serious lubrication design flaw AND provided them with a fix for their screw up, the very next year model they quietly adopted all of my "Home Brewed" fixes as well as a couple of their own. My V45 will be 40 this year and has 80k Miles, Still running with those fixes that I designed and implemented in 1984. Long story short, HONDA does not admit to many "engineering errors", but if they warranty enough failures or get enough "BAD PRESS" they will fix the problem(s). I contend that this is what we are seeing in the 2022 models.

Ahhh....the "camshaft lifter tool". What great memories...

 

[Gooseit69]

I would like to know how many Pioneer 1000 owners have experienced engine overheating problems, like me.
Would like to know the conditions when it happens, and any other information of modifications, tire sizes, bumpers, etc.
I know there are a few of you out there, especially those that ride in high mountain elevations. My machine has overheated on mountain passes when a riding partner on a Polaris Ranger Crew 1000 Premium kept cool. Something is just not right.
Surely, we, as Honda Pioneer Owners, could force Honda to do something about their poor design. I am not a legal type, so maybe someone with a legal background could take this poll data and do something with it.

I live in Colorado just bought the machine and having lots of trouble I'd like to talk more. The Honda dealership is not doing anything they said Honda said this is normal normal until you burn your engine up and I have to pay for it!

 

[HBarlow]

Machine? What machine?

What year? New or used? Odometer miles?

Conditions under which you've observed overheating? Load. Ambient temp? Climbing grade? Road speed?

Without photos and details some of us will wonder if you're just a troll.

My Pioneer's ECM will allow the engine to climb mild grades at low rpm in higher grades without forcing a downshift. That's a recipe for engine overheating so I always manually downshift a gear to keep engine rpm in the power band (not lugging). It's a small twin cylinder engine designed for higher rpm operations.

My engine never overheats.

 

[brettc]

Machine? What machine?

What year? New or used? Odometer miles?

Conditions under which you've observed overheating? Load. Ambient temp? Climbing grade? Road speed?

Without photos and details some of us will wonder if you're just a troll.

My Pioneer's ECM will allow the engine to climb mild grades at low rpm in higher grades without forcing a downshift. That's a recipe for engine overheating so I always manually downshift a gear to keep engine rpm in the power band (not lugging). It's a small twin cylinder engine designed for higher rpm operations.

My engine never overheats.

Good post. I do wonder if using the downshift paddle more often would help.

 

[Bighat]

Did some more testing today. Since I boiled out a couple of qts of Honda radiator fluid out last week, I have been waiting on more to come in, which it did today. Now, I am about 7700’ elevation, which is the lowest I will usually be.
I purchase this radiator burping funnel kit and was using it today.
View attachment 349328
I filled up radiator, and then about 1/3 of this jug. I clamped off the overflow hose, as coolant was always draining into it.
I also parked it in a ditch with the front end up about 30°.
Ambient temp is about 70°F
Started the engine, and let it run for a while until it heated up.
Oh, by the way. I also added a digital readout thermometer on the inlet hose of my radiator, so I can now read inlet and outlet radiator fluid temperatures.
So, as the inlet temperature began climbing, I was getting small small bubbles coming up from radiator cap, as I was hoping. Remember, the cooling system is not under pressure with this jug installed.
When the inlet temperature was getting about 207°F, the volume of fluid began increasing drastically in the container with engine running. First time, it came out of top of container, until I shut off engine, and it cooled back down and drained back into cooling system. I did this again and again, and each time I began to see the volume increase at around 206-207°F.
I am currently letting it cool back down, with 1/3 of jug filled with fluid, to keep air out of coolant system, and scratching my head.
I am in a learning mode now.
Does anyone know what the boiling point of Honda Type 2 coolant fluid is?
Apparently, at 7700’ elevation it is 206°F. Does that seem right?
At what temperatures do other brands and types of coolants boil (not under pressure)?
I need to go find some temperature and pressure curves on coolants and glycol and water.
Water boils at sea level at 212°F, so at 7700’ it boils at about 197°F.
So, apparently the Honda coolant boils at 206°F. I would have thought it would boil at a higher temp?
a
Anyway, I wanted to put my findings out here, and see if others with more knowledge can offer some good feedback.
My goal is to stop my machine from overheating.
And, if you think about it, my radiator is doing nothing at this time, other than cooling fluid down a few degrees (<5°F). So, the radiator nor the fan (which never came on during this testing) have anthing to do with this boiling temperature.
I will put radiator cap back on and see what temperature does, and let you know.

I don't have problem but I'm not at high elevations. But you shared what your machine is doing and give others insight. Can I ask? Why wouldn't the fan come on if you had boiling while sitting in a ditch? If it didn't come on this could be a thermostat problem. But you may also look at mixing your antifreeze heavier. Antifreeze will run cooler than water. You may also look at a higher pressure radiator cap. Something is for sure wrong because many don't have a problem. The reason I mentioned antifreeze mixing and higher pressure cap is because is if your operatiing in high elevations and high outside temps you may need to go above and beyond of what the factory calls for.

 

[HBarlow]

Increasing the ratio of antifreeze to water does not improve cooling ability of the antifreeze-coolant mixture. More antifreeze will increase freeze protection to lower temps but will not improve heat transfer.

How Much Antifreeze Should Be Mixed With Water?

The general recommendation by antifreeze manufacturers is to have a 50/50 antifreeze and water mix. Increasing the ratio of the antifreeze to water such as a 70/30 mix will lower the freezing point of the mix down to minus 72 degrees Fahrenheit, but it will also lessen its ability to cool the...

www.reference.com

Edited to correct the link.

 

[Herbie]

I don't have problem but I'm not at high elevations. But you shared what your machine is doing and give others insight. Can I ask? Why wouldn't the fan come on if you had boiling while sitting in a ditch? If it didn't come on this could be a thermostat problem. But you may also look at mixing your antifreeze heavier. Antifreeze will run cooler than water. You may also look at a higher pressure radiator cap. Something is for sure wrong because many don't have a problem. The reason I mentioned antifreeze mixing and higher pressure cap is because is if your operatiing in high elevations and high outside temps you may need to go above and beyond of what the factory calls for.

I use the Honda Type 2 Coolant.
The fan never kicks on when system open because at 7700’ elevation, it boils before the fan is set to come on.
From reading the coolant temperature, the fan comes on about 212°F, and shuts off about 205°F.
So, appears that burping system at higher altitudes is not advised.

 

[Bighat]

I use the Honda Type 2 Coolant.
The fan never kicks on when system open because at 7700’ elevation, it boils before the fan is set to come on.
From reading the coolant temperature, the fan comes on about 212°F, and shuts off about 205°F.
So, appears that burping system at higher altitudes is not advised.

Maybe a fan over ride switch. Maybe do a search here on the fan over ride switch because I've read about others on hear that have installed one. Maybe they can help answer questions about high elevations and overheating.

 

[Herbie]

Maybe a fan over ride switch. Maybe do a search here on the fan over ride switch because I've read about others on hear that have installed one. Maybe they can help answer questions about high elevations and overheating.

I have installed a secondary ‘pusher’ radiator fan in front of the radiator. It, along with the OEM pioneer fans are both used when riding the Alpine loop in Colorado. They usually keep me down to 2 or 3 bars, but, at times still will get up to 4 bars. Without the 2nd fan, it would overheat (4 bars) a lot. Usually when it overheats like that, I get the oil pressure light come on, as well as high temp light, and on one occasion, the EPS light came on, and it would not shift out of 1st gear. After researching that on this forum, it turns out that the ECU mounted under the seat got too hot, causing the EPS light and transmission shift problem. (I had forgot to turn on my 2nd fan when this happened just this summer 🤬).

 

[HBarlow]

bad link

 

[1HasBeen]

Best way to eliminate air pockets in cooling system is to invest in a vacuum bleeder/fill kit. All the tool trucks have them, plus various alternative tool sources.

 

[Mopower58]

Best way to eliminate air pockets in cooling system is to invest in a vacuum bleeder/fill kit. All the tool trucks have them, plus various alternative tool sources.

Cornwell is the one I have.

 

[Pilgrim]

This is a new radiator/overheating thread…… in the last five years there have been several….
here is what I think and I am not worthy of holding the flashlight of the smart guys who have addressed this in the past…… most of whom moved on to Talons or KRX or Can Am or Yamaha in my case…….
some of them overheat…. Some of them don’t… for some unexplained reason I think the LE overheated more than standard five seaters….
we burped them by putting them up as high as possible and filling them till they burped…. Some overheated because they weren’t properly filled…. But most of the time that wasn’t the problem….
it is hard to explain why altitude is such a factor in the equation…but it is….and Colorado has some long hard pulls….but mine would get hot in Arkansas also…..it is extremely hard to define ”hot” as long as we are talking about two bar.. three bar… four bar situations…..
my definition became “boiling out or not…..”
some guys totally replaced radiator…a 1000 dollar fix that I refused to do because I was crazy enough to buy the five year warranty and thought Honda would eventually admit they had a problem…..
I finally installed the Spall fan and solved my problems…. It is not a simple replace depending on skills…. I don’t have many……
just my two cents….
I don’t know if the Pioneers still have this problem or not…. Mine was a 2018…. The first non fix was they said it needed a reflash….don’t know about the newer ones…..
i think they solved the problem in the Talons as I understand….

 

[Herbie]

I don't have problem but I'm not at high elevations. But you shared what your machine is doing and give others insight. Can I ask? Why wouldn't the fan come on if you had boiling while sitting in a ditch? If it didn't come on this could be a thermostat problem. But you may also look at mixing your antifreeze heavier. Antifreeze will run cooler than water. You may also look at a higher pressure radiator cap. Something is for sure wrong because many don't have a problem. The reason I mentioned antifreeze mixing and higher pressure cap is because is if your operatiing in high elevations and high outside temps you may need to go above and beyond of what the factory calls for.

I did go with lower temp thermostat and higher pressure cap, both from COPS, but did not seem to help.