New Talon Owners - First Things to Know and Check

PaulF

PaulF

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Lifetime Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,462
4,810
113
Utah
Ownership

  1. Talon R
I've not heard about this issue. But if it were wire overload, why would it be a problem later vs when new?
I don't think it is. I have 2 machines and one with 5K miles has had weak steering since it was new and the other with 16K miles seems fine. From the responses, it seems like you either have the problem or you don't.

For those that don't experience the problem, you should be happy that you don't lose your power assist in the middle of a turn at 30mph. Scary as s*** so if/when it happens to you, you will be well aware of the problem and after it happens a couple times, you will become tentative when approaching corners.

Makes driving a Talon a little less fun.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doogle and CID
PaulF

PaulF

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Lifetime Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,462
4,810
113
Utah
Ownership

  1. Talon R
The problem doesn't 'get worse', it takes time for it to come to light on the internet. Mine has been there since the beginning but intermittent enough to ignore. Most guys were probably fighting with their dealers and now more and more guys are bringing it up online. Once a guy sees it mentioned, he brings up his problems.
As a matter of fact, it is such a big problem that RaceCo has developed a ~$3,000 fix for it. New billet rack, 400 watt PS motor and powerful ECU. Baja race inspired and a little overkill for the average rider.

And besides that, I just expect my $20K+ machine to work properly from the factory.
 
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
On the off chance you have to remove your sub trans, @HondaTech gave us this pointer, no need to gut the interior.

"I just saw this post, to anyone doing it themselves. I don't remove any interior pieces, just peel back the rear firewall half behind the driver's seat to get to the studs and everything else can be done from underneath.

Slide the diff forward (remove both driveshaft hoops) and it'll drop out the bottom."

From here, including many good internal photos -

If you're inside the sub trans, it's a good idea to upgrade a couple of parts to the newer ones. Thanks to @HondaTech for the info.

@P1K5Dave does a great photo tech thread on the sub trans rebuild in his Pioneer which is nearly identical to the Talon, body and chassis being the biggest differences (duh).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Doogle
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
It's my understanding that the Talon's fuel injection is quite primitive - price point engineering. A properly engineered FI system should be good from sea level to 20k feet, ours isn't. Half of my riding is above 8k feet and occasionally over 13k feet. I'm in a small percentage of riders and 'we' didn't concern Honda. It's been my experience that when making quick stops for a photo, the hot start could confuse the FI, PaulF speaks to that -

"The stock engine fuel feedback on the Talon is pretty basic (and lame if you ask me). This is why all the altitude problems and limited turbo tuning options. My EFI Onan 5500 generator has a similar feedback system but that is because it is meant to operate stationary and not climb hills. :)

I have been able to reduce the hot start problem somewhat. The problems is that the Talon has no Baro sensor to determine altitude, it uses the MAP sensor to determine barometric pressure and the corresponding altitude. The only way to check and adjust for altitude changes is with KOEO. This is fine if you are only changing a few hundred feet but if you climb 3,000 feet, your AFR is now way off unless you restart the engine. BUT, I have found that it takes a few seconds to "recalibrate" the ECU to the new altitude so if you just start the car like most of us do (turn immediately to the start position), it seems the ECU doesn't have a chance to read the new KOEO MAP reading and just uses the previous one (but that one was 3,000 feet ago. Next time try this...

After you climb and shut off the engine, when you go to restart, turn the key on and wait for all the lights in the dash to "settle down" (about 3 seconds). Once that happens, start the engine. I have found this somewhat reduces the poor running after a hill climb. Not always perfect but it helps a lot.

As far as open/closed loop. The Talon has a "stupid" Narrow Band O2 sensor that was outdated 20 years ago. It only tells the ECU if the AFR is Stoichiometric, rich or lean but nothing in between. It is so slow, it only works at idle and is there to keep the emissions down at idle. As soon as you press the gas, the ECU switches to one of 2 open loop modes. and uses a combination of RPM, TPS, Temp, MAP, etc. and "calculates" fuel (in the form of injector pulse width) based on those inputs. Again, it adjusts for altitude by reading the MAP with KOEO so if you don't wait the 3 seconds, the ECU can't adjust after a hill climb.

IOW, if you start at sea level, never shut the engine off and drive to 5,000 feet, you will be running so rich that the machine will probably die. If you start at 5,000 feet and drop to sea level and never shut the engine off, you will be running so lean it will probably burn the engine up."
 
Last edited:
Doogle

Doogle

Active Member
Nov 30, 2020
186
249
43
Surprise,Az Cincinnati,OH
Ownership

  1. Talon R
It's my understanding that the Talon's fuel injection is quite primitive - price point engineering. A properly engineered FI system should be good from seal level to 20k feet, ours isn't. Half of my riding is above 8k feet and occasionally over 13k feet. I'm in a small percentage of riders and 'we' didn't concern Honda. It's been my experience that when making quick stops for a photo, the hot start could confuse the FI, PaulF speaks to that -

"The stock engine fuel feedback on the Talon is pretty basic (and lame if you ask me). This is why all the altitude problems and limited turbo tuning options. My EFI Onan 5500 generator has a similar feedback system but that is because it is meant to operate stationary and not climb hills. :)

I have been able to reduce the hot start problem somewhat. The problems is that the Talon has no Baro sensor to determine altitude, it uses the MAP sensor to determine barometric pressure and the corresponding altitude. The only way to check and adjust for altitude changes is with KOEO. This is fine if you are only changing a few hundred feet but if you climb 3,000 feet, your AFR is now way off unless you restart the engine. BUT, I have found that it takes a few seconds to "recalibrate" the ECU to the new altitude so if you just start the car like most of us do (turn immediately to the start position), it seems the ECU doesn't have a chance to read the new KOEO MAP reading and just uses the previous one (but that one was 3,000 feet ago. Next time try this...

After you climb and shut off the engine, when you go to restart, turn the key on and wait for all the lights in the dash to "settle down" (about 3 seconds). Once that happens, start the engine. I have found this somewhat reduces the poor running after a hill climb. Not always perfect but it helps a lot.

As far as open/closed loop. The Talon has a "stupid" Narrow Band O2 sensor that was outdated 20 years ago. It only tells the ECU if the AFR is Stoichiometric, rich or lean but nothing in between. It is so slow, it only works at idle and is there to keep the emissions down at idle. As soon as you press the gas, the ECU switches to one of 2 open loop modes. and uses a combination of RPM, TPS, Temp, MAP, etc. and "calculates" fuel (in the form of injector pulse width) based on those inputs. Again, it adjusts for altitude by reading the MAP with KOEO so if you don't wait the 3 seconds, the ECU can't adjust after a hill climb.

IOW, if you start at sea level, never shut the engine off and drive to 5,000 feet, you will be running so rich that the machine will probably die. If you start at 5,000 feet and drop to sea level and never shut the engine off, you will be running so lean it will probably burn the engine up."
Maybe we should get in the habit of turning the key on, then strapping in the seat belt, then starting the engine. Normally I start the engine before I get in to let the engine warm up.
 
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Maybe we should get in the habit of turning the key on, then strapping in the seat belt, then starting the engine. Normally I start the engine before I get in to let the engine warm up.
I definitely need to learn to 'wait' for the dash lights to settle down. Similar to learning 'thumb discipline' - keeping my thumbs out of the steering wheel spokes so I don't break one if a wheel catches and spins the steering wheel (my Talon hasn't done that but it's still a good off-road habit). I even taped a Post It to the ROPS in front of me as a reminder.
 
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Electrical capacity copied from an answer to someone's question. They guy already had aftermarket lighting and wanted more (I don't have that thread so no context).

PaulF on Talon lighting -
Second, that is almost 400 watts just in lights (if they are all on at the same time) and probably a little more due to voltage drop in the wiring. The charging system is pretty big on the Talon (700 watts at 5000 RPM) but the running engine probably takes up around 250 watts. With all the lights on, you are pushing the charging system almost to its max. 13 on the aux battery is almost net charging (12.7 is fully charged for a lead acid battery) so it is barely keeping up at that point. Any more accessories may put you in a discharge state.
 
Doogle

Doogle

Active Member
Nov 30, 2020
186
249
43
Surprise,Az Cincinnati,OH
Ownership

  1. Talon R
I don't think it is. I have 2 machines and one with 5K miles has had weak steering since it was new and the other with 16K miles seems fine. From the responses, it seems like you either have the problem or you don't.

For those that don't experience the problem, you should be happy that you don't lose your power assist in the middle of a turn at 30mph. Scary as s*** so if/when it happens to you, you will be well aware of the problem and after it happens a couple times, you will become tentative when approaching corners.

Makes driving a Talon a little less fun.
That jogs the memory from when I got used to power steering then suddenly got forced to drive a non power steering car. Real work.
 
trigger

trigger

Old Ironsides
Vendor
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Feb 13, 2016
20,937
154,975
113
Bay City, Michigan
www.quickshieldutv.com
Ownership

  1. 500
More on cab heat -
Post #5 shows how open our cabs are to dirt thrown forward by the rear tires. Post #32 shows some simple aluminum brackets that hold the doors open 3"-4". Post #33 shows how the Mudbusters could be extended for better coverage but it would be difficult for them to stop airflow. There are many openings behind both seats in our Talons.

Driver's side taped (also shown in post #33). The openings are many odd shapes and a major PITA to get covered. I used aluminum duct tape because I had it, it's sticky, shapes pretty well and should be mostly waterproof. And it looks like s***. :eek:
View attachment 339354

Passenger side before taping, looking back toward the engine, exhaust side, so HOT!!
View attachment 339355

Passenger side taped. Note the two forward openings acting like ducts for the hot radiator heat to enter under the seat. There are two smaller ones on the driver's side.
View attachment 339356

🤦‍♂️
 
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Talon sparkplug number and NGK number. Save money, order from an NGK source using their number.

On the plug -SILMAR8A9S and in the owner's manual - NGK's number is 90992 (thanks PaulF)

1660665194540
 
Last edited:
Adam490

Adam490

HFA Grand High Wizard
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Apr 7, 2019
7,661
56,497
113
Covington, LA
Ownership

  1. 1000-5

  2. Talon R LV
Talon sparkplug number and NGK number. Save money, order from an NGK source using their number.

On the plug -SILMAR8A9S and in the owner's manual - NGK's number is 90992 (thanks PaulF)
Just ordered two spares for the Talon @ $38/shipped from an eBay seller vs. $26.30 a piece from RonAyers 👍
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CID
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Found this from way back in 2019 from PaulF - (note - Talons aren't having bearing problems, this is just useful tech info)

Honda lists the bearing size in the part description. It is a standard bearing (Front and Rear are the same)...

BEARING, ANGULAR BALL (40X74X36) 91054-HL3-A41

40mm inner, 74mm outer, 36mm wide.

This means you can use any brand/manufacturer you desire if your factory bearings fail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TripleB
R

RIDEREDORBEDEAD

New Member
Aug 24, 2022
1
4
3
USA
Ownership

  1. Talon X4
Just ordered two spares for the Talon @ $38/shipped from an eBay seller vs. $26.30 a piece from RonAyers 👍
Be careful about buying NGK plugs from sellers on eBay and Amazon. There are some pretty good fakes out there. Some times if a price is too good to be true, there is a reason. Just an FYI, and am not in anyway stating that you bought fake plugs. This problem is rampant in the Toyota world too with Toyota branded oil filters. I believe I fell victim to the fake NGK plug deal once, but it was for an old Honda Fit my wife had a few years ago. Never had an issue before we sold it, but I did question the print on the boxes and plugs. Then later found out that fakes were becoming more and more common, so not confirmed, but def suspect.
 
G

Grumpyoldman

New Member
Dec 3, 2022
1
2
3
York SC
Ownership

  1. Talon X
Crossover ring follow up and basic sway bar info.

Answering a question elsewhere, I said that removing the sway bar would soften the suspension 'some' because the sway bar ties the left and right suspension together, both spring rate and shock valving, in effect making both stiffer/firmer. Since the Talon will never be accused of being plush or supple, a light went on, an AHA moment. So last night I removed both SB links and tied the bar up to the frame. Note that you can't just remove one link, the loose SB end will contact the upper trailing arm(?) during articulation.

I'm happy to report it did exactly what I'd hoped - my R rides much better and compared to stock, is 'nearing' plush. Perfect, no, of course not, but noticeably softer than with the sway bar connected.

Note that I don't drive like my hair's on fire, so the minimal lean resulting from disconnecting the SB won't affect my riding. If you DO ride like your hair's on fire (you KNOW who you are 😱), this probably isn't something you should consider. This experiment is FREE and I can always go back.

Also note that I have my rear crossover rings raised 20 turns (15 on the fronts) and on my Talon is as far as I can go. This means I use as much travel as possible while on the softer tender springs before crossing over to the stiffer mains. This may also mean that I'll get a worse rear bucking on harder hits, not sure. :( ETA: I've raised the fronts to 17 turns, almost topped out against the preload ring and at <500 miles, the zip ties are still intact.

You can see that there's still a bit of clearance left, before coil bind, on the left rear but not much. If that zip tie gets cut from pinching, 20 turns will prove to be too many. Both sides are pretty much the same. (ETA: several hundred miles later and all 4 zip ties are still intact with the front cross over rings raised 15 turns and the rears raised 20 turns)
View attachment 210542

How to compress to check? Park across a rut, opposite corners. For the curious, I completely forgot to look at the fronts. 🤫
View attachment 210544

View attachment 210545

Sway bar tied up to frame on both sides with bungee cords. You can see the upper trailing arm (with brake line) that the sway bar end will hit if it isn't tied up.
View attachment 210546
Thanks a lot for a thorough process. New to site but plan on using your process to get some ride out of my 19 x. Thanks again
 
  • Like
Reactions: CID and Smitty335
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Honda calls it a ROPS because it's unsuited to be called a roll cage. It's not just Honda, it's pretty much industry standard, none of them are much more than something to hold our roofs up. :oops:

This is a section cut out of a damaged ROPS by another member.
1674879005377
 
CID

CID

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Oct 27, 2019
5,015
22,381
113
SE Denver-ish
Ownership

  1. Talon R
Stator Outputs, thanks to Hondasxs hisself -

Talon 1000 = .7kw = 58 amps @5000rpm
Pioneer 1000 = .6kw = 50 amps @5000rpm
Pioneer 700 = .45kw = 37 amps @5000rpm
 
  • Like
Reactions: Smitty335

About us

  • Our community has been around for many years and pride ourselves on offering unbiased, critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is one of the best.

User Menu

Buy us a beer!

  • Lots of time and money has gone into making sure the community is running the best software, best designs, and all the other bells and whistles. Care to buy us a beer? We'd really appreciate it!

    Beer Fund!

    Club Membership!